Thread: Did my country really plan this????

Originally Posted by Crocodile

There's nothing subjective about women and children dead from hunger as a result of the Collectivization of the 1930s.

If you say so. I don't know anything about that. But if they clearly died from starvation as a result of colllectivization, then there is nothing subjective about that either.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Nothing like that ever happened in the evil Capitalism.

Of course it does! Most countries in the world are capitalist and people have died of starvation in such countries ever since capitalism started.

Originally Posted by Hanna

If you say so. I don't know anything about that. But if they clearly died from starvation as a result of colllectivization, then there is nothing subjective about that either. Of course it does! Most countries in the world are capitalist and people have died of starvation in such countries ever since capitalism started.

Here's the thing. The first and the most important plank of the Communist Manifesto is the abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes. That's an objective think. That's the definition of the communism. There could be no subjectivity whatsoever about that. That was being achieved in the USSR by means of the collectivization process. The people who had the land ownership and the crop ownership were deprived of it by the physical force. The choice the farmers faced was either to join the 'collective farming' in which all crop belonged to the state or being starved to death. There were so many deaths that the various estimates differ in MILLIONS of people! So, I think it's relatively safe to conclude that an implementation of a real communism in any country would result in LOTS of deaths. Do you find that subjective?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The choice the farmers faced was either to join the 'collective farming' in which all crop belonged to the state or being starved to death.

And they choose death?!

And I am NOT going to be drawn into a long debate about a topic that I have limited knowledge of (communism) and no particular passion for.

But I would say that if anyone was going to implement communism now, they'd have the benefit of being able to avoid repeating the mistakes of Russia and China, like heavy-handed collectivization.

East Germany for example, did not do this. They collectivized, but in a civilised way, and those who didn't like it had plenty of time to readjust, and farm owners where given compensation. After 1990, all the collective farm workers there became unemployed and many are now at the bottom of society, longing for the good old days when they were respected workers with job security. All the while East Germany is importing its wheat and beetroot from the USA or elsewhere in the EU.

That is another way of looking at this matter.

Originally Posted by Hanna

That is another way of looking at this matter.

Ok, let's get down to one specific question I was trying to ask you so many times without any meaningful reply: Do you support the notion of private property? Yes or no?