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I'd like to see some corroboration of that figure of 5000 dying during hazing. It seems preposterous that any army would allow that to go on.
It's a big problem, and I know that you used this phrase to attract attention to it, but I can't help but mention that calling these recruits best minds of Russia is a bit of a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by ibshambat
You do know that all students are exempt from military service as long as they are attending school, don't you? As well as those who have kids, and some other categories. So most recruits are those who droped out of school or who were unable to pass university exams, and who then failed (or refused) to use other convinient ways to avoid enrolling.
Some young men enroll because they want to (either because they think it's their duty or for other reasons), but these guys are not usually get harassed.
Usually everybody get harassed.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
P.S. The post looks like brutal trolling.
They don't get harassed to death, then? ))Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
I think that level of brutality VERY MUCH depends on the place of service.
I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Because they say that 'defense of the homeland is a sacred duty of every man' or something like that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Would you agree with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
5000 dead a year? Surely not in Russia alone. I don't believe that. Where are you getting your figures from?Quote:
Originally Posted by ibshambat
Russia is not the only country that has this system. (conscription). It's very common across the world. If you look at the history of Europe, you can see why it was necessary; particularly for Russia - which has been a "favourite" place to try to invade throughout the centuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Assuming there is no bullying, many people say it can be quite good for some guys to do military service. They grow up a bit during this period. For example, ALL guys I went to school with, did it for a year. They got tested, to see what type of assignment would suit the person. Some of the jobs were reasonably interesting, I think.
But the system is not very good or efficient, so those countries that do not feel directly threatened are trying to get away from it. In a modern war, it is better to have a professional hi-tech and slick army with top equipment (like the USA or Britain) than simply a very large army.
If you plan to USE your army, that is.... America and Britain for instance, DO use their militaries. Some countries are in a tense situation and have no choice but use conscription to make sure the army is the right size that's needed to protect the country.
Is there debate about stopping conscription in Russia?
One of the most popular books on Russia in the the UK, is Anna Politskaya's book (forgotten the name). Bullying in the military is an issue that she raises - it seems pretty clear that it causes a lot of problems.
Nobody asked me when my time had come. ))) It doesn't matter. By law you MUST join the service unless you have a legal reason not to (health condition, family circumstances, education and some other). Evasion is considered a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
P.S. Even though I admit that there are fatalities in Russian military I find the figure of 5000/year a big BS. And even though I can only judge by my own experience in the army, I saw very little cases of hazing. Of course we had the 'deds' and there were some punches from them but nothing out of the ordinary. Punches were not all that hard and were administered for the lack of discipline mostly. (And some people just don't understand any other language but a good punch).
There are two kinds of units in Russian military. Where the commanders are weak the task of maintaining the discipline is usually taken by the 'deds'. But this situation is NOT universal. Our commanders were actually AFRAID that something might happen to us (up to a point of idiocy sometimes).
It might sound nice until they come up with something like a law prescribing to throw every 10th 18-year old male off a roof at a height of 30 metres, for instance. Anyway, forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal, and this is what is a real crime. A law legalizing such kind of things is just a wrong law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
No, strictly speaking, it's not illegal. Many countries have conscription system. Besides, if you want to join ranks with me in building the world's anarchy, you're welcome, of course, but they're forcing you to pay taxes against your will, aren't they? No, don't tell me that you pay them willingly. ))) There are many things in laws of any country which oblige its subjects into doing (or not doing) something against their will and that's what law is -- something to put a limit to your actions. And you MUST obey the law or you'll be prosecuted. Don't tell me it's wrong. I find all laws wrong as the idea of state itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
You must be American since you know what's a "real crime" in countries other than your own, and what isn't...! It's their problem either way. FYI: This system is in use in some countries that are much more democratic than both the US and Russia, and voters (including the men affected) see no big problem with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
I am no big fan of the Russian army (or conscription) but I no difficulty understanding why 1) Russians feel they have to have an army and 2) they have had to use conscription to get the amount of soldiers they need to do the job properly. Anyone who ever looked in a history book would know that.
Plus, as people mentioned here, in Russia it's clearly quite simple to get out of it anyway so it's a theoretical problem only. In smaller countries that option doesn't exist, since every person counts.
Incidentally, without the Russian conscription based army WW2 Germany would probably have won in WW2.
But it seems Russia ought to improve the conditions for the soldiers a bit.
This is not strictly speaking true. At war-time a full mobilization is conducted which means that every able-bodied male aged from 18 to 60 is joining the army (I suspect that the full mobilization law exists even in the USA). These situations are extremely rare, fortunately, but in 1941 there was such a situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
But it probably helps if these men are at least partially prepared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
The United States used to have the "draft." This is conscription.
Eric C. >forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal
You always drive over speed limits, or run red lights when no-one's coming? Don't pay your state or federal income tax? Steal stuff instead of paying for it? Or is it your will that you comply with all the laws of the land? What if they reinstitute the draft here?
It seems like Dedovshcinina may be responsible for only 500 a year:
http://teachpro.ru/source/obz11/Html/der11184.htm
. Mayeb less: Russian Army Suicides: Brutal Hazing -- and Organ Harvesting? - TIME
Okay, let me restate it in a clearer way: no one has a right to tell anyone what profession to choose, and/or trap someone in some place and keep him/her there against his/her will. I hope at least with that you agree?!!Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
Eric, they are not forced into a profession! They have to spend about a year serving their country, protecting it. After that, they have done their duty and can go to university or get any job they want. While they are in the military they are taken care of and can travel, eat and live for free, so they have almost no expenses.
In Sweden we say that women carry a baby for nine months; men to military service for a 9-12 months. Not a big deal whatsoever and many guys enjoy it. Those who really don't want to do it can usually get out of it by faking an illness or pretending to be gay. If you are a pacifist you can drive an ambulance, be a hospital helper or something like that.
In Israel for example, everyone, man or woman has to do it for 2-3 years! Most Asian countries have military service and many countries in Europe. It's part of life but hopefully sometime in the future it will no longer be needed.
The only problem is if, like in Russia, people die why doing it - due to bullying; that should be investigated and stopped.
Eric,
This is a common practice thru out the world for people to have a mandatory term of service in the military.
Military service - Citizendia
The US had this as early as Vietnam.
Yep, I know it. But many of present democratic countries formerly used to burn people for their opinions. I think we need to move on sometimes, and the humanity has outgrown such things as "draft".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerms
First you need to
1) Organise world peace and achieve stability at all borders
2) Find out a way of convincing leaders of all countries that there is not going to be any more war against their country.
May I suggest that you start by campaigning for withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American voter and citizen that's an area where you can make a difference. Next, campaign for the US withdraw it's bases from places like Korea and Europe. Next, try to find a solution to the Israel question.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...dc66mCNRFaaPb-
I don't think humanity will ever outgrow this thing. Even some of that 'democratic' coutries still have drafts and that situation is not making anyone unhappy. In Russia, there are hundred and one way to avoid military service if you really don't want to serve. Moreover, not every country can afford a professional army where you have to pay people for the service. This is VERY expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...dc66mCNRFaaPb-Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
First you need to
1) Organise world peace and achieve stability at all borders
2) Find out a way of convincing leaders of all countries that there is not going to be any more war against their country.
May I suggest that you start by campaigning for withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American voter and citizen that's an area where you might be able to make a small difference. Next, campaign for the US withdraw it's bases from places like Korea and Europe. Next, try to find a solution to the Israel question... Putting missiles anywhere along the border of Russia is definitely not a good way to make them feel that it's safe to reduce the army. But right now that is what the US is proposing.
If you can tackle all those problems. then after that you can raise the question of dropping conscription again.
We have the longest land border and we need someone to guard it. Especially our south -- to block drug caravans bound for central Russia and Europe. This is not because of missiles (ordinary soldiers won't help in the next world war if it happens). Still, I think that the army size can be reduced at least by half. I cannot imagine modern warfare of such a large scale as it was in WW2 when the frontline spanned several thousand kilometers.
Just in case I would remind you that I'm not against the army per se, I agree almost every country needs it. I'm against conscription and I believe the army should be professional and consist of those who wish to serve. Forcing someone to serve in the army against his will is a torture for both the man and the army (at the respective scale). Having no wish to serve, the man will only aim to get away from his service and get out of the army as soon as possible. Just imagine, for instance, what that would look like, if everyone was forced to become a doctor for a year. I guess hospitals would drown in patients' suits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Its becoming less prevalent in the world. Precisely for the reasons you stated. But its unlikely to go away completely because of the reasons Ramil stated.
The analogy is not exactly right. It's more like forcing everyone to take medical training for a year, in case we'll need a lot of doctors in future. Most of these guys don't do anything useful or potentially harmful (like protecting the borders or guarding arsenals), and a lot of regiments are based in the cities, so they just learn military-related stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
There are a few sad exceptions, though, when recruits had to paticipate in real action (Afganistan, Chechnya). I don't know about Chechnya, but with Afganistan these 18-19 year olds didn't even know they were going to war, until they got there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
There is such a debate, but this debate is hardly ever heard.
The journalist Anna Politkovskaya was assassinated in 2006. Most of the Russian journalists think that she was assassinated because of her activity in human rights, and that she was 'inconvenient' to some because of raising such urgent issues.
Слушайте, о чём может вообще идти речь? Отмена призывной системы? Это будет равнозначно ликвидации нашей армии как таковой. Призыв - это традиционная, привычная для нас система. Отмени её - кто пойдет служить за такие деньги по контракту? Или нам вместо пограничников резиновые куклы надувать (как технику в последнее время). Чтобы отказаться от призывной системы необходимы глубокие реформы, на которые как всегда не хватит денег. Нынешнее реформирование (труды г-на Сердюкова) есть ни что иное, как окончательное и планомерное её(армии) разрушение. И так уже отменили и сократили всё что можно. Отмена призыва - контрольный выстрел в голову агонизирующему гиганту. Ramil, конечно, прав - вполовину сократить можно, но только тогда будет это возможно, когда армия будет нормально технически укомплектована(т.е. в ближайшей перспективе - никогда).
Что касается самой службы, то я считаю, что это полезно для юношей и ничего ужасного в этом нет. Существует закон (Положение о Призыве в ВС РФ), но многие предпочитают длительные дебаты о его состоятельности, правомерности его применения(по отношению к себе обычно=)), а далее откупы и дачу взятки за откос непосредственному его соблюдению. Это очень грустно. Что это за страна, где люди ХОТЯТ жить в правовом государстве, где закон был бы превыше всего, но САМИ всячески эти законы обходят и порождают мздоимства? Дисциплина нужна, друзья мои, во всём. Армия её прививает.
P.S. Простите, что по-русски, писал на скорую руку