Thread: Dec, 11 2010. Moscow, Manezh square

nice pics, looks like fun.

Originally Posted by sperk

nice pics, looks like fun.

Que??
It looks to me like a massive demonstration with some heavy-handed police involvement.

Ria Novosti says:

Nationalist riots broke out in Moscow and St. Petersburg on Saturday as police dispersed protests in both cities against the killing of a Moscow football fan. Yegor Sviridov, 28, was killed last week during a brawl in northern Moscow between football fans and migrants from the North Caucasus.

The St. Petersburg demonstration, which involved some 1,000 people, was sanctioned by the authorities but turned violent as police attempted to prevent its participants from blocking a road.

The Moscow rally was not sanctioned, which resulted in 29 people, including at least eight riot police officers, being injured in clashes. The demonstration, which took place on Manezh Square next to the Kremlin wall, involved some 5,000 people, mostly football fans and members of nationalist movements.

What did they want to achieve with the demonstration?

This illustrates the situation with tolerance in Russia. These people on the photographs have a great deal of support (I asked many people).
The main reason for this was the situation with the criminals who attacked and killed Sviridov -- there were 6 of them but 5 were released by the police almost immediately (most probably for a bribe). Anti-caucassian opinions have always been strong here and this was 'the last drop'. They blocked one of the major streets in Moscow the next day and they assembled at Manezh square on Saturday to demand justice (initially). Assorted nationalists and other radical movements couldn't miss this action, of course, and soon the crowd started shouting 'Russia is for the Russians. Moscow is a Russian city', etc. Several Caucassians were attacked that day in different districts of Moscow.
This action was followed by similar demonstrations in StP and some other Russian cities.

The situation is a bit tense, because the Caucassians promised to gather tomorrow (Dec, 15) to 'answer the insult'. It's only rumors like this http://www.newsland.ru/news/detail/id/600052/cat/94/
but the locals are preparing.

Why are there problems between Caucasians and Russians in Moscow; they are not new immigrants, right? They have always lived where they live and were born as Russian or USSR citizens. They speak Russian, right? What are they doing that is annoying regular Russians?
Or is it the Chechnya war and moslem fundamentalism - is that the underlying reason?

Football hooliganism is so idiotic!

The antagonism has been gradually building up since 1991 (the first riots in Chechnya). Then, because of many ethnic Caucassian mafias having set foot in Moscow and other central Russian cities. In people's minds the word 'caucassian' means 'criminal'. This notion has at least some basis since many crimes are indeed committed by ethnic Caucassians (I'm not trying to say that Russians do not commit crimes, still there is a rather high crime level among the Caucassians who live in Central Russia). Causassians that Russian see here are either uneducated, arrogant bullies or ultra-rich men in Maybachs with bodyguards. There's noone 'in the middle'. Then, of course, there were several terrorists attacks all committed by the Caucassians, so there is plenty of reasons for hatred.

And this is not mere football hooliganism (though the authorities try their bests to make it appear that way) it's nationalistic. People are manipulated to hate the Caucassians instead of hating their government. And tomorrow there is probably going to be another provocation.

This has (almost) nothing to do with football and Caucasians, it's just "the fact that the marderers were released almost imediately (of course for the bribe) after killing the persone, pissed off people who trusted in justice."

Originally Posted by Hanna

Why are there problems between Caucasians and Russians in Moscow;

"Причем список конфискованных вещей у задержанных сегодня поражает разнообразием. Здесь и ножи, и отвертки, и травматические пистолеты, и даже самурайский меч и самодельная кольчуга, сделанная из монет."

Проханов вчера на эхе сказал, что это начало "Русского талибана"
(что-то странное на эхе твориться стало, кстати, будто бы владельца сменили).

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/personalno/734017-echo/

Нет, я договорю. Я не буду парировать ваш пассаж – он мне не интересен. Я буду говорить. Я считаю, что, разрушая Советский Союз и создавая это великолепное национальное государство, которое называется «РФ». Оно же уже не империя, это национальное государство и мы хрестоматийно называем нашу страну, где 85% русских, национальным государством. И в национальном государстве русскому человеку называть себя националистом преступно. То есть в крохотной маленькой уродливой Эстонии быть националистом престижно, на Украине националисты при Ющенко захватили власть и были господствующей духовной силой, но только в России русский человек, если он выходит под национальными лозунгами, он националист в лучшем случае, а в худшем – фашист. Это раз.

...

Я считаю, что власть, виновная во всем этом, она должна прежде всего признать факт существования национальной розни. Вот, если мы не будем признавать этого факта, мы будем лгать и себе, и всем. Мы должны жестко сказать, что в России, в сегодняшней России существует межнациональная рознь и вражда. И надо искать рецепты исправления этого уродства.

...

технология превращения стихийных движений в организации типа Талибан отработаны. Знаете, что сейчас будет? Сейчас вот эти рассеянные, развеянные толпы, они разделятся на микрогруппы. 4-5-7 человек, сетевая система, они покроют всю страну своими маленькими террористическими организациями и группами.

...

Я думаю, что наш президент Медведев, просто он беспомощный, он выглядит совершенно жалко и даже смехотворно со своими квиттерами, со своими бессмысленными посланиями фотографий на фоне русской драмы не только сегодняшней, а вчерашней и позавчерашней. Он абсолютно неадекватен. Мне кажется, это президент, с которым связана потеря русского социального времени.

OK, now I understand how people in Moscow feel about Caucasians.

It's funny how it looked like a multicultural idyll when watching all the nationalities living together in the USSR, seemed like it was one big happy family. Clearly that was an illusion - maybe people were too worried about getting into trouble- and it was just the shere strength of the state that stopped things from getting nasty. But it LOOKED great.

As for what happened in the 1990s and onwards: It's interesting to think how much of the ethnic problems and wars are stirred up by foreign powers and how much is genuinely coming from the people themeselves.

And it's really sad to see how things have degenerated in the Caucausus and read of terrible poverty and misery in some of the old Soviet countries in Central Asia.

Russia is unique in so many ways, so there is no "formula" to try from any other country! Everything that happens to Russia seems to be happening for the first time.
In Western Europe, everyone has the same problems (to a varying degree) at the same time, and can look at what others are doing. But Russia has to figure out a solution to political problems that no other country had before, and that nobody else is really having. All the while the West is watching and complaining.

Seems that Caucasians are "Russian" in the passport only... a bit like the immigrants to Northern Europe who look, behave and think differently. History can't be made undone though.... Got to find a solution that keeps everyone happy.

Another strange thing is the existence of semi-islamic states in the Rusisan Federation, like Chechnya... (the Chechnya war is a mystery to me - I don't understand what happened at all.)

Why are there never any people from that region coming onto this forum?

What about people from Central Asia; do you think there is a problem with them too, or just Caucasians?

Would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Why are there never any people from that region coming onto this forum?

Maybe because they are too busy robbing, raping and dancing lezginka?

What about people from Central Asia; do you think there is a problem with them too, or just Caucasians?

Their culture and life-style are rather alien to my taste, but at least they are not agressive like most Chechens, Ingushs and Dagestanis are...

Actually in central Russian regions most Caucasians are from independent south Caucasian republics and they mostly make tense rather than from Russian Muslim states.

What about people from Central Asia; do you think there is a problem with them too, or just Caucasians?

Well, compare Arabs and Indians in Europe, maybe the last ones make less problems but still there are many cultural, behavioral, hygienic differences which make things not easy. Maybe labor migrants entrance is not bad but there should be control of it, they should go for particular works in demand but they flood in on themselves and if they don't find a job they often to go to thieve (many come in with that purpose).

Why are there never any people from that region coming onto this forum?

I think there are purely statistical reasons. Or maybe a lack of interest in Russian or English.

I knew this girl in Russia and should would point out a street vendor or some shady character and say кавказ. I didn't know what a кавказ was but it was obvious that she had no use for them, even though she was Muslim (nominally at least.)

I said that this was happening but so many had their head in the sand. So many wanted to believe that Russian Muslims were "different" but it was a lie. The history of Islamic oppression in eastern Europe, Serbia and Russia and the countless wars against Islam is one that is not mentioned in the West. It is only a matter of time before major problems again develop (that is if you do not consider the fact that the criminal American president Clinton bombed his allies, the Serbs, in favor of the Islamic usurpers of Kosovo, "major")
I find it a sad tale that Russian authorities are now arresting Russians over this. They should be careful not to follow the examples of Britain and Europe.

RUSSIA: Muslims stirring up trouble….AGAIN!

Also read here for background history.
Islam Watch - "History of Jihad against the Russians (1444-191" by History of Jihad
(Russians and British at one time on the same side)

There's a problem though. Regardless of how the population might think of the Caucassians, the state simply cannot allow any nationalistic policy because Russia will disintegrate pretty swiftly then.