Thread: Austrian Politican Speaks candidly

Originally Posted by rockzmom

When you have a dream, any dream big or small, you can at least try to achieve that dream in the U.S. There is always someone willing to help you. No one stops you from praying to whomever or whatever or not at all. You have a choice of schools, jobs and where to live. You're not forced to marry someone. You can rise from your own bootstraps (if you even have enough money to have them) and if you have the determination and desire, make a very comfortable life for yourself and family.

It may be FAR from perfect...

Replace in this paragraph U.S. by "Sweden" or "Russia" or almost any contemporary state and you will get essentially the same. It is a slogan to believe, an ideology. The "Truth", which contains no facts. When someone tries to decipher what is so special in US in terms of measurable values, it usually turns to average number of dollars consumed per person per unit time. This is really nice but somewhat different.

It is like an advertisement: "all your family will be happy forever with our world best toothpaste". Yeah, they found a decent formula for white teeth and, maybe even fresh breathe. Well, maybe consumers of that toothpaste really dream to be happy forever with all family and believe that it makes their toothpaste the world best one. And teach their children at school to be happy forever with the world best toothpaste and all family...

But it sounds a bit like... "propaganda".

@Croc, are you sure you want to hear my anti-USSR environmental rant? Is there anyone here who doesn't know about these things? It could get pretty long.... and I could get tempted to add some other items to the complaint.

The only thing I can remember complaining about while it was still a relevant/current complaint, was the war in Afghanistan and once or twice, things relating to the Baltic states. There were some standard SocialDemocrat reservations against the USSR - old cliches which no doubt everyone here knows.

At least in other countries, people only found out about the scale of the environmental problems there towards the end of perestroika.

Originally Posted by Hanna

@Croc, are you sure you want to hear my anti-USSR environmental rant? Is there anyone here who doesn't know about these things?

Thank you. So, essentially that means it's not the 'consumption of goods and services' which takes an ecological toll on the planet, but rather the way (=the technology) those goods and services are PROCURED. Some 11 thousand years ago it was believed it's ok to hunt whatever mammoth you find delicious until they went extinct and the global famine had happened. What I said about colouring in blue and living in harmony with the nature in the forest was, of course, a grim joke. Hunting is one of the most ecologically expensive ways to procure food. That outdated technology was substituted by the farming which was a renewable source. There is a well known list of the obsolete 'ecologically dirty' technologies which were modernized: burning wood for heating was substituted with coal and then the natural gas. You should read a good introductory article to get a better picture. In the mid-20th century it was believed it's OK to build a dam on a river and destroy the ecology of the entire region. So, what I'm asking from you is to realize that the mental link between the consumerism and the ecology is artificial and serves a powerful propaganda weapon. The calls for "let's conserve the water, the energy, the heat" are fine as long as they aren't used politically. However, I noticed that the so-called 'Green Parties' have gained the momentum with their electorate made of otherwise politically inert people. If I were a politician, I would join a 'green party'. Why? Because: (1) everybody understands they want something good; (2) the 'green party' would never win a majority in any elections, so no responsibility is assumed; (3) as a minor party, a 'green party' can join to any coalition it wants: with the left, with the right, with whoever, and get a real money and power in exchange. So, a real money/power and no responsibility! When you get to the political career as you said you would, take my advice and join your local 'green party'.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Replace in this paragraph U.S. by "Sweden" or "Russia" or almost any contemporary state and you will get essentially the same. It is a slogan to believe, an ideology. The "Truth", which contains no facts. When someone tries to decipher what is so special in US in terms of measurable values, it usually turns to average number of dollars consumed per person per unit time. This is really nice but somewhat different.

It is like an advertisement: "all your family will be happy forever with our world best toothpaste". Yeah, they found a decent formula for white teeth and, maybe even fresh breathe. Well, maybe consumers of that toothpaste really dream to be happy forever with all family and believe that it makes their toothpaste the world best one. And teach their children at school to be happy forever with the world best toothpaste and all family...

But it sounds a bit like... "propaganda".

I believe that no matter how much "truth" I provide you with, you will still not be satisfied.

Measurable values are different for each person.

You might want to have Freedom of Religion and it was why many immigrants came to (and still come to) the US:

Most of the early colonies, which were in part founded as a result of religious persecution, were generally not tolerant of dissident forms of worship with Maryland being the only exception. Freedom of religion was first applied as a principle of government in the founding of the colony of Maryland, founded by the Catholic Lord Baltimore, in 1634. Fifteen years later (1649) the Maryland Toleration Act, drafted by Lord Baltimore, provided: "No person or persons...shall from henceforth be any waies troubled, molested or discountenanced for or in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof."

Maybe you want freedom of choice in your schools for your children. Here is a list of FREE After School Clubs & Student Organizations at my daughter's High School (not including sports). And remember, she attends the 2nd poorest high school in our area and that was by choice from among a selection of 8 high schools:

Asian Club, Astronomy, Best Buddies ( non-profit organization dedicated to enhancing the lives of people with intellectual disabilities by providing opportunities for one-to-one friendships.), IMPACT, the Bible Club!, Chess Club, Choreography, Creative Writing Club, Debate Club, Environmental Club, Ethiopian/Eritrean Club, Forensics Club, French Club, Gay-Straight Alliance, Hispanic Honor Society, International Honors Council, It's Academic Team, Journalism Club, Key Club (international student-led organization which provides its members with opportunities to provide service, build character and develop leadership.), Latin American Students United, LASU Dance Team - Titanes Salseros, Literary Magazine, Mathletes, Mock Trial, National Honor Society, Peace Studies Club, Photography/Art, SGA (Student Government), STEP Team, Student Academy of Science, Titan Records, W.E.B.DuBois Society, Yearbook, Young Democrats

You want to live somewhere, no problem as we have the Fair Housing Act of 1968

Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act), as amended, prohibits discrimination in the sale, rental, and financing of dwellings, and in other housing-related transactions, based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status (including children under the age of 18 living with parents or legal custodians, pregnant women, and people securing custody of children under the age of 18 ), and handicap (disability).

Most kids/young adults today have never even heard of or seen the propaganda known as the "Four Freedoms Posters." They take these freedoms for granted because they are living them every day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Fr...orman_Rockwell

Originally Posted by rockzmom

I believe that no matter how much "truth" I provide you with, you will still not be satisfied.

Hmm... Actually I didn't look for satisfaction and did not follow the discussion. I tried to explain what is "propaganda" and its relation to truth as a reply to your paragraph. I don't oppose your values but mixing facts and ideology is just painful for me as a researcher.

Measurable values are different for each person.

Nope. Measurable values are values which can be measured by everybody who follows the technology of measurements and do not depend on a personal opinion. They are the only way of being objective and even sane. In common life people use it intuitively, which is called "common sense", but in the areas far from everyday life the common sense does not work. Ideology is needed for people to feel comfortable and it is good. But when such an ideology is used to decide problems far away from the decider (like the fate of people on another end of the globe), these decisions can be absolutely destructive. And this is the great danger for everybody.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Hmm... Actually I didn't look for satisfaction and did not follow the discussion. I tried to explain what is "propaganda" and its relation to truth as a reply to your paragraph. I don't oppose your values but mixing facts and ideology is just painful for me as a researcher.



Nope. Measurable values are values which can be measured by everybody who follows the technology of measurements and do not depend on a personal opinion. They are the only way of being objective and even sane. In common life people use it intuitively, which is called "common sense", but in the areas far from everyday life the common sense does not work. Ideology is needed for people to feel comfortable and it is good. But when such an ideology is used to decide problems far away from the decider (like the fate of people on another end of the globe), these decisions can be absolutely destructive. And this is the great danger for everybody.

I guess I did not express myself clearly enough with my reply. A Measurable Value has different meaning to different people. Let's say for this example...the value is 10%... 10% of the immigrants who come to the U.S. within 10 years will make more than the poverty level (just an example here I honestly don't know the value). That measurable value may be of no interest to someone if they are wealthy to start out with and their concern is say, freedom of religion. They don't care about income, they care about religion. So, that value has no meaning for them. Yet for someone who is poor, it would have significant meaning for them.

That was why I provided different types of facts for you as I didn't know which fact you wanted "truth" for and not "ideology" as I don't know what is meaningful to you.