Thread: Another one bites the dust...

Yay Dogboy! If you was a bitch dog I would kiss you!
You hit the nail right on the head with your post.

I think that this reporter was treading on thin ice that finally gave way under her.

Originally Posted by DDT

Yay Dogboy! If you was a bitch dog I would kiss you!
You hit the nail right on the head with your post.

I think that this reporter was treading on thin ice that finally gave way under her.

Why thank you. Though, I'm not making excuses for anybody. If I went around promoting Anti Steve Erwin campaigns and talked about how horrible of a guy he was and that I'm glad he's dead, I'm gunna piss a lot of people off. And if someone whacked me for it, Well then its my fault. I earned it.

I just don't get why people are so surprised.

A bunch,

No, not surprised...

...but death is death... and that's all there is. I've seen people die. No honor, no glory, no justification... only death.

I just don't like seeing, hearing, reading of people killed, again and again, both sides... over ideas, thoughts. Her death was not justified, in my opinion. Surprised? No.

Was her death real? Yes, I understand it from your point of view. But her death was wrong. She is dead now, and she is no longer allowed a dissenting voice.

You are.

Yes... I grieve for her, and her family.

I am going to back-off ever so slightly, because I understand both sides very well. I have seen nor heard any information that this killing or murder, was justified... or maybe from a burglar or thief... or whether this a random action from a criminal. The news stated that the cause/reason for the killing was not clear.

But yes, I'm North American... and I want to believe that there are certain human traits that are "universal"... which includes preservation of human life.

I don't understand why such reality exists... but I'm listening.

Dobry

Originally Posted by din

you're basically saying that if someone doesn't agree with the status quo, and they speak up about it, they should be punished by the state...

Isn't it biased in some way to be sure without any proofs that she was killed by the state?
Well, probably she was, but in that case I don't think her articles were the only reason.
In modern Russia there is no need in extraordinary bravery or honesty to write or say the things she wrote and said. Really. Basicaly she said almost something of common knowledge (at least I think it's well-known that during guerrilla warfare civilians are often hurt).

Doggie,

So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:

I can't believe people actually feel bad for her. If anything she was hurting more than helping. What does turning people against the military and against the war help? Killing, abducting, torturing of civilians ins't right/ But its war, and a war that Russia is struggling to win...
...
I don't feel bad for her at all...
...
So im not going to cry for this reporter who most likely did more harm than good. Good riddance to her...

I know you wrote that about a Russian war, but your statements are general in nature and I can't possibly imagine you think any differently for the US war.

So in your mind we should probably callously murder most democrats, including both Clintons, as well as the majority, if not all, of journalists and TV-reporters worldwide? Just because they publicly dissent the war in Iraq?

Now if we step back into the 21st century for a while, there are good reasons why there should be dissenting journalists exposing truth about military operations, in any democratic and free country.

Firstly, in your mind Abu Grahib should have been covered up and never let out in the public, right? Because it's a war and these things happens. NO. The military is not a safe haven for sick **cks to go around and feed their sick fantasies! The military is supposed to be our finest, our bravest and our greatest men and women fighting for our values. Uh-huh, we see what great values these people are bringing, and only through public uproar can we turn the military back into what it should be, the example of the nation.
Secondly, the public and the individual have every single right in the world to dissent against a war they feel is unjust, unnessecary and immoral. If Bush decided tomorrow to invade England because of suspected WMDs there, you'll be all in favor right? Because you got to support the troops! That is a load of puppy poo, my friend. If you don't agree with a war you should speak out against it, and I am getting pretty tired of people exclaiming that those people are un-patriotic unamerican and generally a homosexual leftie. Support the troops, I agree, after all they are not to blame for the war, but be critical of the government at all times!

Как человека ее, конечно, жалко, но как журналиста - ничуть.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Doggie,

So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:

DUDE I NEVER said she DESERVED IT. Even in my quote that "proves" it doesnt prove anything! It just reiterates what I already said, and admitted to.

And your argument is flawed too. First of all, I am againt the Iraq war. So is about 75% of the American public. That is our right as American citizens.

Now if someone of a group of people started going around (Actually they do, we get protested outside our base all the time) and started saying how American Soldiers were just babykillers, they target civilians in Iraq/Afghanistnan, they are all gunna burn in hell. Whatever. If they got killed, WELL THEN OK! For the last time. They had it comming.

There is a diffrence between "Deserving to be punished" for something, and to have "An obvious demise" looming in y our future.

This lady was in a dangerous business in an unstable country. It was bound to happen. She didn't deserve it, but it happend. I'm not suprised, and frankly, I don't really care. Hopefully at least 1 scared soldier who doesn't trust his commander and is forced to do things he doesnt want to do everyday can sleep easier at night knowing this chick isn't going to try and put him in jail for following orders.

Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.

And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.

And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?

Yes, I was... yes I have an idea what it's like... and no, I don't think you said she deserved it. No worry.

It was an unfortunate, unjustified death... but death is death, we mourn, and we move on.

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Doggie,

So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:

DUDE I NEVER said she DESERVED IT. Even in my quote that "proves" it doesnt prove anything! It just reiterates what I already said, and admitted to.

And your argument is flawed too. First of all, I am againt the Iraq war. So is about 75% of the American public. That is our right as American citizens.

Now if someone of a group of people started going around (Actually they do, we get protested outside our base all the time) and started saying how American Soldiers were just babykillers, they target civilians in Iraq/Afghanistnan, they are all gunna burn in hell. Whatever. If they got killed, WELL THEN OK! For the last time. They had it comming.

There is a diffrence between "Deserving to be punished" for something, and to have "An obvious demise" looming in y our future.

This lady was in a dangerous business in an unstable country. It was bound to happen. She didn't deserve it, but it happend. I'm not suprised, and frankly, I don't really care. Hopefully at least 1 scared soldier who doesn't trust his commander and is forced to do things he doesnt want to do everyday can sleep easier at night knowing this chick isn't going to try and put him in jail for following orders.

Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.

And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?

Maybe I am reading too much into your words, but when you say "good riddance", it certainly doesn't givet the impression that you don't care. But the point is that some of these soldiers aren't doing this kind of stuff on orders of their superiors,and I can't see why Russian soldiers are any better than the Americans. Heck, the Russian soldiers even used to sell guns to the Chechens! Hold people accountable for their actions!

Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.

We don't know the full story of this woman but it was a dangerous game she was playing. It is possible that her death may even save lives at some point in the future, who knows. I don't know anough about the full situation "to get all worked up" over her.

I am not more 'worked up' about this murder than other contract killings in Russia. I was more sad for the banker that got gunned down. It just seems like any person trying to stem corruption or expose the truth in Russia get callously murdered. Its despicable and must stop!

Я думаю наиболее вероятны две причины, по которой ее могли убить.
Первый вариант – что ее замочил кто-то кому она дорогу перешла.
Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине. На действия спецслужб “иностранных друзей” не похоже – слишком грязная работа.
В крайнем случае, деньги с “товарищами по борьбе” не поделила.

Originally Posted by DagothWarez

Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине.

+1
True. Government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but opposition does.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by DagothWarez

Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине.

+1
True. The government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but the opposition does.

Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

True. The government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but the opposition does.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

Ну например можно было бы не прятать в Англии Бориса Абрамовича с Закаевым. Не выделять деньги на подрывную деятельность в России, а то всегда, знаешь ли, такой соблазн их поделить.
Я вот что-то не помню, чтобы Путин кого-то хоть пальцем тронул, невзирая на то сколько помоев на него вылили.
Не надо лодку раскачивать. Ну его на фиг. Спокойствие нужно и тишина и отсутствие постоянного давления на Россию.

1)
http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/05/29/2996/220586.html

2)
"Liberty, the freedom of speech, democracy, as well as national interests, moral rules and independance" -- all this has LONG ago became a small change in the Big Politics, and people who don't get it should either sit at home, tending their own business ie watching movies, reading books, drinking, smoking, f...ing, working or stealing, helping or avoiding police etc, OR take into account what sometimes happens when you poke your nose in different things and be prepared to it. I personally don't take an active interest in politics, but I've read that even many journalists from so called "democratic camp" considered this woman too naive, straightforward and sometimes even "crazy".
I knew once a woman (very funny woman indeed, once she tried to organize illegal brothels in Moscow) who was the first wife of notorious journalist Babitsky, who working on radio Liberty "boldly critisized the ruling regime". She told me that he earnestly admitted that he decided to work for "liberal west" because they offered him more money than "totalitarian east"; he would work for another side, but on the second thought he came to conclusion that West would always pay more, because in possible future USA and Europe will have more funds than Russia. So he become "a voice of freedom".
There are several versions of this murder, one of them concerning Chechen trace (perhaps she wrote something about one clan, or better say TRIBE of those "innocent free-loving democratic" people, that insulted another tribe -- may be pro-Puting one, ruling now, it is freely admitted here -- and the second one concerning the possible provocation with the purpose of making grounds for the West to interfere with future president elections in Russia under pretext of "undemocrartic trends".
Or may be she, being naive, just didn't share cash with whom it should be shared.
Anyway, it is a horrible murder, but being such, I don't think it should be a cause for "undemocratic horrible Russia" whining.

Originally Posted by DDT

Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.

Well, but sometimes this IS right. And, more importantly, it puts the pressure on the soldiers to actually DO things the right way -- even when it seems less efficient to them. Same applies to the US in Iraq, for example.

Originally Posted by DagothWarez

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

Ну например можно было бы не прятать в Англии Бориса Абрамовича с Закаевым.

А их никто и не прячет -- они живут себе как свободные люди, с доказательствами же Путин позорно облажался

Я вот что-то не помню, чтобы Путин кого-то хоть пальцем тронул, невзирая на то сколько помоев на него вылили.

It's a bit too early for you to know about something like that although the whole story with building explosions is indeed quite fishy.

Впрочем винить режим в данном убийстве вряд ли стоит имхо. Скорее всего тут надо смотреть чем она конкретно сейчас занималась.

Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.

We don't know the full story of this woman but it was a dangerous game she was playing. It is possible that her death may even save lives at some point in the future, who knows. I don't know anough about the full situation "to get all worked up" over her.

Thanks for the props. And the sanity.

Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

I don't see you getting all worked up about genocide in Africa, or human rights in Beloruss or N.Korea. What about evil scientists in CERN swtizerland trying to make a mini black whole that could potentially swallow the earth... Or even Russian mafia in America for that matter.

People kill each other, People live, People die. When will hippies realize!? Recognize! Who knows who did it and why? Who cares? She died. OK get over man.

Originally Posted by laxxy

А их никто и не прячет -- они живут себе как свободные люди, с доказательствами же Путин позорно облажался

Может Путин и облажался. Вернее в прокуратуре облажались. Возможно, так не самые умные люди и не вполне понимают, как надо заниматься подобными делами. Но уж чего-чего, а Борис Абрамович это просто легенда 90-х. Он сам и есть 90-е. Столько всего натворил, пробы негде ставить.
Теперь конечно. Свободный человек.