Ужасно...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061007/ap_ ... ist_killed
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Как страшно жить...
Русские, объясните, пожалуйста, почему всех честных людей в России убывают. Что происходит у вас???
There are no honest people at all in any country !!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Почему же всех? Думаю, еще немало честных людей осталось живых и здоровых. :twisted:
ну не могут всех убывать сразу и одновременно, ты подожди годик и посмотрим сколько ещё осталось... :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Ну не могут всех убить сразу (одновременно), ты подожди годик и посмотрим сколько еще останетсяQuote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
О покойниках надо говорить либо хорошо, либо никак. Я ничего говорить не буду.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Царствие небесное, рабе божьей Анне. :|
Я тоже.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
И я лучше помолчу...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Ужас! Пусть земля ей будет пухом.
http://novayagazeta.ru/politkovskaya.jpg
Ещё одна смелая женщина Wafa Sultan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Negt6IzxPTo&eurl=
Какая сумасшедшая страна. :cry:
I can't believe people actually feel bad for her. If anything she was hurting more than helping. What does turning people against the military and against the war help? Killing, abducting, torturing of civilians ins't right/ But its war, and a war that Russia is struggling to win.
By exposing all these "atrocoties" she is just turning the public opinion away from the war. She might as well write a "FREE CHECHNYA OF OCCUPIERS" sign and wear it around.
I don't feel bad for her at all. Did she also write about how the cells are too small, and the meals not warm enough in Guantanomo bay? Or how maybe Nur- Pashi Kulayev, The only hostage taker to survive inside the beslan school, and who ALSO served in the Russian Army prior to becoming a lowlife dirtbag, Should be set free because he surendered instead of fighting to the death.
Screw that and the soft hippy crap. Let me share a story with you that one of my teachers told me...
One of my Pashtu teachers, is from Nangerhar Afghanistan and about 28 years old. She told our class stories, about how when she was 8, 9, 10 years old, she and her family used to bring water, food, supplies to the Mujahadin fighters. She said after school her mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, uncle, aunts, everyone... would make a huge dinner and her and her brother would hike off into the woods and deliver the food to the Mujahadin, and then sneak back after dark.
Then one day she said she came home from school and the Russians were at her house. They shot her grandma and grandpa and took one of her uncles.
She was fishing for sympathy... but wouldn't get any from me.
She had just spent 10 minutes telling us about how everyone in the village knew where the fighters were, and helped them by supplying and feeding them. Then you try and complain that the Russians killed your family.
Well Wah wah wah cry me a river. If you play with fire you're gunna get burned.
Now this is just 1 story, and I know every family has a diffrent story. And I know not all families were as guilty as hers. But I think they kinds had it comming.
The same goes for civilians in Chechnya. If you feed, supply, clothe, or help/ aid in any way somebody who's whole goal in life is to kill Russians, Americans, Britts, whoever... Then you are just as guilty as the perpetrators themselves. We even have a law about this in America, called. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION. If you drive the car for a bank robber, you are just as guilty as the guy who had the gun.
Now I'm sorry for the people whos lives were truly ruined by bad judegment/ bad leadership of Russian military officers. But you know what, I garuntee not every single civilian in chechnya is/was as innocent as they seem.
Anyone ever seen the movie Блокпост? How about Грозовые ворота?? Perfect examples of how chechen civilians aid terrorists. And they too deserve to be punished.
So im not going to cry for this reporter who most likely did more harm than good. Good riddance to her.
so dogboy, I guess you'd be firmly in the british camp if you were around during the american revolution?
hang around free republic much?
If you can't distinguish between fighting in a warzone and ambushing a woman in an elevator and murdering her in cold blood, then damn. Just damn. I'll be the first to tell you that I didn't necessarily find her to be the most unbiased of people or without fault. She was hardly your conventional "neutral observer" in her coverage. But to say "good riddance" to someone simply because of what they write is really idiotic. My reason for opening this post wasn't to promote her views or debate Chechnya. Like I said, I have issues with that. But the calculated murder of someone who simply writes unpopular things is disturbing, both for the act itself and for the fact that something like that can happen. Something is truly rotten in the state of Russia...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
Quote:
Originally Posted by din
What does that even mean?
I suppose you're reffering to Chechnyas struggle to become free from Russia. How am i supposed to answer such a hypothetical question like that? Wow what an intelligent thing to ask. Hey, Mr. Im so smart with my Very intriguing questions, Riddle me this...
So you go ahead and grant Chechnya Independance, Then Dagestan, Then Tatartsan. Then how about you give Vladivostok back to the Chinese, and Alaska back the US, and just keep giving land away that is rightfully Russia's untill all thats left is Moscow and a single rail line to St. Petersburg, surrounded by 70 some odd free republics. Yea sounds like a good plan.
The American Revolution was entirely diffrent anyways. The British never OWNED America. America was the homeland of many Frnech immgrants, as well as British, Spanish... etc. All of which had Army forts and interests here. The war against the British has almost nothing in common with the war in Chechya.
I didn't say she deserved to die either. I said she simply had it comming... And when you write about topics so controversial in a growing, changing country like Russia. Well, play with fire, get burned.Quote:
If you can't distinguish between fighting in a warzone and ambushing a woman in an elevator and murdering her in cold blood, then damn. Just damn. I'll be the first to tell you that I didn't necessarily find her to be the most unbiased of people or without fault. She was hardly your conventional "neutral observer" in her coverage. But to say "good riddance" to someone simply because of what they write is really idiotic. My reason for opening this post wasn't to promote her views or debate Chechnya. Like I said, I have issues with that. But the calculated murder of someone who simply writes unpopular things is disturbing, both for the act itself and for the fact that something like that can happen. Something is truly rotten in the state of Russia...
Simple as that.
you're basically saying that if someone doesn't agree with the status quo, and they speak up about it, they should be punished by the state. you're saying that the means justify the ends as long as the status quo remains intact. youi're trying to argue that things are black and white and that's never been the case. would you like me to make it a little simpler? I'm not sure I can, but I can try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
I am not replying to any message... I'm just having thoughts.
My thoughts return to "V for Vendetta". The power of thoughts.
I cry for her. I hate violence of any and every form.
The lessons of Christ, Ghandi, Kung, Bonhoeffer, Wesley, and many others... were good, and relevant, and most importantly peaceful, with no violence... free thought, free speech, and the peaceful exchange of ideas for all of us to have better lives... and all of them devoted their lives to this idea.
And my visa will probably be revoked for saying this. :|
You accuse me of making it black and white, but put words in my mouth? Again, please show me where I said "Because of beliefs she deserved to die" Where did I say "Down with free speach, she needed to be punished by the state".Quote:
Originally Posted by din
I said, Her opinion wasn't popular and she had it comming! And for this you might as well have called me a communist. You obviously don't even know what you're talking about, seeing as you dropped the revolutionary war argument and try to label me as the one who has labeled. Heres another idea Mr. riddler. How about you just stop talking untill you can post two things that coincide with each other or show some facts to back it up.
She was unpopular, she had enemies, she got killed. It happens, I say again, repeat, I say again... Maybe you don't understand english that well (seeing as you're probably American its most likely the case. Это она заслужила сама! Понятно? выбрала свой путь и это была ведь ей дорога... Всё, конец связи.
Yay Dogboy! If you was a bitch dog I would kiss you!
You hit the nail right on the head with your post.:thanks:
I think that this reporter was treading on thin ice that finally gave way under her.
Why thank you. Though, I'm not making excuses for anybody. If I went around promoting Anti Steve Erwin campaigns and talked about how horrible of a guy he was and that I'm glad he's dead, I'm gunna piss a lot of people off. And if someone whacked me for it, Well then its my fault. I earned it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
I just don't get why people are so surprised.
A bunch,
No, not surprised...
...but death is death... and that's all there is. I've seen people die. No honor, no glory, no justification... only death.
I just don't like seeing, hearing, reading of people killed, again and again, both sides... over ideas, thoughts. Her death was not justified, in my opinion. Surprised? No. :cry:
Was her death real? Yes, I understand it from your point of view. But her death was wrong. She is dead now, and she is no longer allowed a dissenting voice.
You are.
Yes... I grieve for her, and her family.
I am going to back-off ever so slightly, because I understand both sides very well. I have seen nor heard any information that this killing or murder, was justified... or maybe from a burglar or thief... or whether this a random action from a criminal. The news stated that the cause/reason for the killing was not clear.
But yes, I'm North American... and I want to believe that there are certain human traits that are "universal"... which includes preservation of human life.
I don't understand why such reality exists... but I'm listening.
Dobry
Isn't it biased in some way to be sure without any proofs that she was killed by the state?Quote:
Originally Posted by din
Well, probably she was, but in that case I don't think her articles were the only reason.
In modern Russia there is no need in extraordinary bravery or honesty to write or say the things she wrote and said. Really. Basicaly she said almost something of common knowledge (at least I think it's well-known that during guerrilla warfare civilians are often hurt).
Doggie,
So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:
I know you wrote that about a Russian war, but your statements are general in nature and I can't possibly imagine you think any differently for the US war.Quote:
I can't believe people actually feel bad for her. If anything she was hurting more than helping. What does turning people against the military and against the war help? Killing, abducting, torturing of civilians ins't right/ But its war, and a war that Russia is struggling to win...
...
I don't feel bad for her at all...
...
So im not going to cry for this reporter who most likely did more harm than good. Good riddance to her...
So in your mind we should probably callously murder most democrats, including both Clintons, as well as the majority, if not all, of journalists and TV-reporters worldwide? Just because they publicly dissent the war in Iraq?
Now if we step back into the 21st century for a while, there are good reasons why there should be dissenting journalists exposing truth about military operations, in any democratic and free country.
Firstly, in your mind Abu Grahib should have been covered up and never let out in the public, right? Because it's a war and these things happens. NO. The military is not a safe haven for sick **cks to go around and feed their sick fantasies! The military is supposed to be our finest, our bravest and our greatest men and women fighting for our values. Uh-huh, we see what great values these people are bringing, and only through public uproar can we turn the military back into what it should be, the example of the nation.
Secondly, the public and the individual have every single right in the world to dissent against a war they feel is unjust, unnessecary and immoral. If Bush decided tomorrow to invade England because of suspected WMDs there, you'll be all in favor right? Because you got to support the troops! That is a load of puppy poo, my friend. If you don't agree with a war you should speak out against it, and I am getting pretty tired of people exclaiming that those people are un-patriotic unamerican and generally a homosexual leftie. Support the troops, I agree, after all they are not to blame for the war, but be critical of the government at all times!
Как человека ее, конечно, жалко, но как журналиста - ничуть.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
DUDE I NEVER said she DESERVED IT. Even in my quote that "proves" it doesnt prove anything! It just reiterates what I already said, and admitted to.
And your argument is flawed too. First of all, I am againt the Iraq war. So is about 75% of the American public. That is our right as American citizens.
Now if someone of a group of people started going around (Actually they do, we get protested outside our base all the time) and started saying how American Soldiers were just babykillers, they target civilians in Iraq/Afghanistnan, they are all gunna burn in hell. Whatever. If they got killed, WELL THEN OK! For the last time. They had it comming.
There is a diffrence between "Deserving to be punished" for something, and to have "An obvious demise" looming in y our future.
This lady was in a dangerous business in an unstable country. It was bound to happen. She didn't deserve it, but it happend. I'm not suprised, and frankly, I don't really care. Hopefully at least 1 scared soldier who doesn't trust his commander and is forced to do things he doesnt want to do everyday can sleep easier at night knowing this chick isn't going to try and put him in jail for following orders.
Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.
And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?
Yes, I was... yes I have an idea what it's like... and no, I don't think you said she deserved it. No worry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
It was an unfortunate, unjustified death... but death is death, we mourn, and we move on.
Maybe I am reading too much into your words, but when you say "good riddance", it certainly doesn't givet the impression that you don't care. But the point is that some of these soldiers aren't doing this kind of stuff on orders of their superiors,and I can't see why Russian soldiers are any better than the Americans. Heck, the Russian soldiers even used to sell guns to the Chechens! Hold people accountable for their actions!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.
We don't know the full story of this woman but it was a dangerous game she was playing. It is possible that her death may even save lives at some point in the future, who knows. I don't know anough about the full situation "to get all worked up" over her.
I am not more 'worked up' about this murder than other contract killings in Russia. I was more sad for the banker that got gunned down. It just seems like any person trying to stem corruption or expose the truth in Russia get callously murdered. Its despicable and must stop!
Я думаю наиболее вероятны две причины, по которой ее могли убить.
Первый вариант – что ее замочил кто-то кому она дорогу перешла.
Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине. На действия спецслужб “иностранных друзей” не похоже – слишком грязная работа.
В крайнем случае, деньги с “товарищами по борьбе” не поделила.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by DagothWarez
True. Government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but opposition does.
Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Ну например можно было бы не прятать в Англии Бориса Абрамовича с Закаевым. Не выделять деньги на подрывную деятельность в России, а то всегда, знаешь ли, такой соблазн их поделить.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Я вот что-то не помню, чтобы Путин кого-то хоть пальцем тронул, невзирая на то сколько помоев на него вылили.
Не надо лодку раскачивать. Ну его на фиг. Спокойствие нужно и тишина и отсутствие постоянного давления на Россию.
1)
http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/05/29/2996/220586.html
2)
"Liberty, the freedom of speech, democracy, as well as national interests, moral rules and independance" -- all this has LONG ago became a small change in the Big Politics, and people who don't get it should either sit at home, tending their own business ie watching movies, reading books, drinking, smoking, f...ing, working or stealing, helping or avoiding police etc, OR take into account what sometimes happens when you poke your nose in different things and be prepared to it. I personally don't take an active interest in politics, but I've read that even many journalists from so called "democratic camp" considered this woman too naive, straightforward and sometimes even "crazy".
I knew once a woman (very funny woman indeed, once she tried to organize illegal brothels in Moscow) who was the first wife of notorious journalist Babitsky, who working on radio Liberty "boldly critisized the ruling regime". She told me that he earnestly admitted that he decided to work for "liberal west" because they offered him more money than "totalitarian east"; he would work for another side, but on the second thought he came to conclusion that West would always pay more, because in possible future USA and Europe will have more funds than Russia. So he become "a voice of freedom".
There are several versions of this murder, one of them concerning Chechen trace (perhaps she wrote something about one clan, or better say TRIBE of those "innocent free-loving democratic" people, that insulted another tribe -- may be pro-Puting one, ruling now, it is freely admitted here -- and the second one concerning the possible provocation with the purpose of making grounds for the West to interfere with future president elections in Russia under pretext of "undemocrartic trends".
Or may be she, being naive, just didn't share cash with whom it should be shared.
Anyway, it is a horrible murder, but being such, I don't think it should be a cause for "undemocratic horrible Russia" whining.
Well, but sometimes this IS right. And, more importantly, it puts the pressure on the soldiers to actually DO things the right way -- even when it seems less efficient to them. Same applies to the US in Iraq, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
А их никто и не прячет -- они живут себе как свободные люди, с доказательствами же Путин позорно облажался :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DagothWarez
It's a bit too early for you to know about something like that :) although the whole story with building explosions is indeed quite fishy.Quote:
Я вот что-то не помню, чтобы Путин кого-то хоть пальцем тронул, невзирая на то сколько помоев на него вылили.
Впрочем винить режим в данном убийстве вряд ли стоит имхо. Скорее всего тут надо смотреть чем она конкретно сейчас занималась.
Thanks for the props. And the sanity.Quote:
Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.
We don't know the full story of this woman but it was a dangerous game she was playing. It is possible that her death may even save lives at some point in the future, who knows. I don't know anough about the full situation "to get all worked up" over her.
I don't see you getting all worked up about genocide in Africa, or human rights in Beloruss or N.Korea. What about evil scientists in CERN swtizerland trying to make a mini black whole that could potentially swallow the earth... Or even Russian mafia in America for that matter.Quote:
Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.
People kill each other, People live, People die. When will hippies realize!? Recognize! Who knows who did it and why? Who cares? She died. OK get over man.
Может Путин и облажался. Вернее в прокуратуре облажались. Возможно, так не самые умные люди и не вполне понимают, как надо заниматься подобными делами. Но уж чего-чего, а Борис Абрамович это просто легенда 90-х. Он сам и есть 90-е. Столько всего натворил, пробы негде ставить.Quote:
Originally Posted by laxxy
Теперь конечно. Свободный человек.