The Soviet brainwashing was a bit more skillful that's all. The truth is multi-faced, so all of us are brainwashed more or less.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
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The Soviet brainwashing was a bit more skillful that's all. The truth is multi-faced, so all of us are brainwashed more or less.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Skillful? Oh, no! It was too primitive and straightforward and was really effective only along with extensive terror, which was over at 1953.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
The brainwashing is a technology to make a person to be completely unable to perform the critical analysis of certain ideas or statements or just words and words combinations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
When a brainwashed person hears something that is presumably questions an idea-focus, (s)he suffers an uncontrollable negative emotional reaction that makes a person temporarily unable to perform intellectual activity.
This is just disgusting and has nothing to do with faces of truth.
I believe that everything is possible without brainwashing effects. Even faith. Brainwashing phenomenon is an evil, which can be avoided completely.
Why avoid it while it's so great a tool? As soon as everyone seems to understand that every ruler in the world is an unscrupulous, disgusting moral bankrupt, what would you expect from them? Justice? Honor? Dedication? Don't be absurd.
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I don't think our grandparents were all stupid and cowards. I think the opposite would better reflect the reality. People were idealistic, progressive, strove to overthrow worn and torn stigmas etc. I think the communistic ideology is smart and cunning, not the primitive and straightforward.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
like the word "USA" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
exactly. Even if you watch the reaction ofQuote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Hannasome of the forum members here, you'd notice that. And that being said of the [relatively] open and intellectual members. Now, can you notice what kind of reaction the word "exploitation" causes in our Soviet minds?
Not really. Do you strongly associate "black" with evil and "white" with good? Most people do. But, the KKK members, for example, wore white robes. Were they good or evil? Black or white? It's all relative, as usual. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
I don't think the brainwashing is evil. It's just a part of the culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
In case you forgot, the USA and the Americas were settled by Europeans. There are places with blue-eye blond Swedes. I know this because I've worked with them. They hate brown people.
Murder rates in USA? pretty high among the immigrants. The Brazilians, Colombians, Venezuelans and Mexicans that come here bring their gangs and drugs. Check the murder rates there.
People cry in anguish when they are deported. People cry in joy when they become citizens. I flew to Chicago to see Belorussian Natalia become USA Citizen Natalia. I'm very happy for her, but sad for her friends in Belarus. Somehow I can't get a visa to Belarus. Russia and Ukraine are happy to let me in to see my "kids".
I've lost track of most of my "kids" because there are so many. I hear from a few for 2-3 years then they vanish. I get some e-mail though: (paraphrased)
"I hated you, I hated the Motel, I hated the USA. I am now a Manager for a hotel in Russia. You were right. I miss you, the Motel and USA. Please come here and speak bad French with the Canadians. Correct my English. Speak bad Russian. Learn German. Are you hiring for next season?"
People actually wonder why I love the J-1 Visa kids.
Well what do you want me to say then... ? Stuff my nationality, my language, my culture and my values.. After all, the USA knows what's best for everyone all over the world, particularly when it comes to economics... It has the right to have military bases anywhere it wants... to invade any country in the world, at any time, for any reasons, real or fake....
I am well aware that the USSR did some terrible things, particularly to its own citizens. But that was many decades ago and the country doesn't even exist anymore. It's old news.
The USA on the other hand is still around though and more aggressive than ever.
AS to who has the most effective brainwasing:
Well, which one of these countries basically dismantled itself, and which country is still convinced that it's the best country on earth? USA 1 - USSR 0!
This is an awesome song about a brainwashed American, who started as a good person and a Christian but believed in all the BS he's heard on TV.. and kills some innocent people in a war, and becomes indifferent to the damage he causes.. Old song. This is the best rock group in Scandinavia for three decades but they usually don't sing in English.
http://<a href="http://www.youtube.c...1&index=47</a>
"Primitive and straightforward" was not about ideology. It was about brainwashing technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Of course there is nothing about "stupid and cowards". В тридцатые годы в СССР происходило что-то очень странное и уникальное. Какие-то очень глубокие и непонятные запредельные вещи. Современному человеку это представить невозможно, для него такое может быть только в измененном состоянии сознания: "вещества" и т.п. Существовала острая эйфорическая атмосфера какой-то немыслимой экзистенциальной свободы, в том числе и в лагерях, независимо от убеждений и судеб. До нас она доходит отражениями в тогдашних фильмах и книгах как прямо (Герман, Гайдар, Каверин...), так и косвенно (Булгаков, Ильф&Петров...) и даже через вторые руки (Искандер, "Стоянка человека", например.) Кстати, Михалков в первых "Утомленых солнцем" ухитрился ее воспроизвести. Обычные рациональные трактовки здесь не срабатывают. Я долго думал над этим и отчаялся подвести под какой-то шаблон.
Но сама технология, то есть последовательность действий властей, была достаточно простая.
Yeah, you can say this is subjective and a problem of degree, not of quality. There are no exact proofs, still I feel a big difference between prejudice+templates and physiological rejection. It is very different. First is a controllable simplification tool of the intellect, second is an uncontrollable block for it.Quote:
like the word "USA" ;) exactly. Even if you watch the reaction ofHannasome of the forum members here, you'd notice that. And that being said of the [relatively] open and intellectual members.
Let us assume someone say you that black is white. What is your reaction? My reaction is: "oh, really? So, give the definition of black and white, let us see, maybe in some context it is really true". I can be skeptic but I can play around. The brainwashed in "black and white" guy (if such were) will fall into hysterics and start to abuse an interlocutor in a way he normally would find unacceptable himself.Quote:
Black or white? It's all relative, as usual. ;)
Everything is either a part of nature or a part of culture, still there are things we can get rid of. There are people invulnerable to that (I don't mean myself :D) maybe there are even invulnerable cultures idunno.Quote:
I don't think the brainwashing is evil. It's just a part of the culture.
I am not brainwashed!
:good:Top 10 great things about the USA:
Amazing nature
Positive and outgoing people
Rock music
Cool art
Gospel music
Great sci-fi movies
Entrepreneurship of Silicon Valley
Cultural melting pot
Homesteading
Lots of great literature.
USA is not such a bad country as many think. When I was younger (say very young) I almost idealized it. It it really free... to a degree. The difference is that freedom is understood differently in different places on Earth. Freedom in USA first and foremost means 'free enterprise'. That's what USA is about. It's ideal for making money (if you're not a complete incompetent at everything). Say, you're a doctor and you don't know anything about making money. All you know is that you know how to heal injuries -- no problem. There will always be a guy who would 'sell' your talent to others. Or imagine you know how to make delicious cookies (well, I am simplifying things a little, but I'm doing it deliberately) -- you'll have a loan in no time at a very low interest rate for opening your business. People do not care where low interests come from they're only interested in them staying low. They do not care about politics and they care even less about what's hapenning in the rest of the world. Many Americans live through their lives without ever travelling abroad (many don't even bother to visit a neighboring state). Well, they're free and probably happy.
It's when you start to mess with politics, it's when you start to think about the rest of the world when the ugliness of the 'regime' starts to emerge.
Nearly all other countries hate USA for being the most prosperous country probably because their inhabitants secretly envy their well-being and of course get frustrated about how unfair things are at the moment.
What? USA treats other countries unfair -- everybody outside US knows that but them, in US just don't care. Am I envious? Oh, probably I am. But no, I'm too 'brainwashed' to go live there.
They are not the most prosperous country though!
Several countries in Europe have a much higher GDP per capita than the USA has.
And there are terrible problems with poverty and segregation in the USA.
Interesting discussion about culture and "brainwashing." One of the best things Hanna left out of her list is that we live under the rule of law. Of course, it gets bent from time to time, but generally it is the standard. I am afraid that some people here view the US through the lens of their own society. Not every government is as bad as some extrapolate from Russia's government.
Here's a list of how corruption is seen to permeate various countries. Russia is very low on the list, but when you say things like "all governments are corrupt" you are basing your thinking on your own experience without realizing that the pattern does not necessarily map to other countries. I am not saying that the US is an angel, just that it may not be as bad as some think.
Corruption Rating Barely Changed | Business | The Moscow Times
Have they stopped taking bribes in the Senate and the Congress? They're all right, aren't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
Plus, the normal view seems to be that anyone who doesn't love and adore the USA is "brainwashed" and must explain themselves.
While it's perfectly ok to throw around the most outrageous, exaggerated and hateful comments about other countries (interestingly the ones that the USA don't like is suspicious against...)
If you ask me, that's a perfect example of very successful brainwashing!
Ramil, yes, much better than yours. Let me know when you find a link to a bribe scandal in Congress.
2 secs of googling revealed this link:
Congressman Admits Taking Bribes, Resigns - washingtonpost.com
I could dig up more, still I'm sure you can do it yourself, just type 'bribes in congress' in the search field.
And I should probably point out that this scandal hapenned because somebody got actually caught. They don't take bribes and announce the fact from the highest balcony in Washington, so I'm practically sure that the practice exists.
Hey, lobbyism is legal in USA, didn't you know? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Well that too. ))) Official bribes are the best. Still I wasn't talking about these.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
chaika, you may find this interesting:
Congressional Culture of Bribes
There's but one thing about the American society that I can't bring myself to admire: their ignorance of their own greatness. Most Americans wholeheartedly believe that they are great, without knowing exactly why. Ask average Americans if they've ever heard of William Faulkner, or Richard Feynman, or Bobby Fischer. Few people might have a vague idea, while those guys were absolutely the best ones in their area of expertise.
Russians, on the other hand, are much more conscious of their pluses and minuses. Their contribution to science, art, sports, etc is no less than Americans'; the difference is, Russians are aware of it. Their criticism of their own setbacks is harsh and severe (especially in matters dealing with politics), but they're also truly proud of their national identity.
In America, it looks like following the orders: you believe that you're great, just because that's what you are told to do. Or rather, that's what everybody does without knowing why.
National Consciousness. I suppose this is ultimately what makes a nation a Nation.
What nation? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Misha Tal
Put a period here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misha Tal
Ha-ha! :lol2: That reminds me of an old saying from the Soviet Union times:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
- What's great about the USA?
- The Great Lakes.
It's very natural you think those are the thoughts of your own. The good propaganda differs from the bad one specifically in that point.
Here's a poster from the olde times that goes along the lines of your perception of the USA: ;)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d/Poster35.jpg
So, my sincere congrats to you - you've beenbamboozled!!brainwashed like everybody else. :druzja:
Don't be silly Croc! And any brainwashing you recieved in the USSR seems to have been reversed, to the exact opposite, so it can't have been very good!
Why should I be brainwashed? There was some mildly socialist stuff going on when I was a kid, but nothing compared to the USSR for example.
If they didn't get to you, then they surely didn't get to me! Some of that socialist stuff was pretty darn irritating, come to think about it.
It puts you OFF, if anything.
And note: I have no issue with Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Japan etc... They don't do any of the aggressive things that the USA do!
Plus, like I said, I really like American people (just a shame they are so brainwashed!!):D
Ok, so re-phrasing what Ramil likes to say about the democracy and freedom, at least I realize I am brainwashed too. And since you don't, that makes you much more severely brainwashed. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Because, the only way you can't be brainwashed is when you start judging using your own experience. Then you would be subjective, but not brainwashed. As of now, you just repeat what other people say with the logical stresses that other people make. Sometimes, you have admitted a couple of times, you can't even repeat the logic of the other people, only remembering they were convincing. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Ok, so let's go back to our example with the USA. You mentioned [with heat] a couple of times you hate the US's military bases all across Europe. What have those bases ever done to you [as a kid]? Were the military personnel used to destroy your sand box with their military boots? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
That's just because you were brainwashed differently. :) For example, N. Korea & China perceive Japan as an aggressor. Also, do you know that Russia is still formally at war with Japan over the islands? The military actions could technically resume at any moment. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I'm pretty sure American people would gladly accept your highly intellectual and unbiased pity. :tease::"":Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I could easily write another ten great things about the USA.
But it sounds like you are determined to believe that I am brainwashed instead of considering the possibility that I siimply have some valid objections about US foreign policy based on undisputable facts...
So, I challenge you Crocodile!
Write ten good things about Russia or the USSR (pick either!)
:good:Top 10 great things about the USSR:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Baikal
Rockets
Yenisei dam
Ballet
Vodka
Balalaika
Bears
Matroska
Cultural melting pot
Lots of great literature
Pioneer Camps? Chess? Boris Grebenschikov?
+1 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
...
...
Croc don't cheat! You should come up with your own...
Давай!!
Oh my ... Ok ... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Amazing nature
Sincere people
Classic music
Cool art
Pop music
Great WWII movies
The best weapons
Cultural melting pot
Science
Lots of great literature.
PS. So, what was the challenge all about?
Hmmm ok! Well if everyone is a bit brainwashed then I guess I am a bit too.
And you are right that I really can't stand those bases in Europe. There are some very good personal/national reasons for that but I don't want to bang on about Sweden when this is a forum about Russia. But yo summarise: the US did a couple of sneaky and rather underhand things.
Plus, you see these American military transports in Germany and other places -- it's extremely offputting. Now they want it in Eastern Europe too. Turn on the radio and you get American airbase radio station... like.. whose country is this!!?? Here in the UK I worked on a military IT project a few years ago (had to undergo security clearance for that) The work was partly at a British defense facility and my movements were pretty restricted - the limited access made it hard to work efficiently. Meanwhile, American officers, including techies were in and out like the owned the place!
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/img/original/military.jpg
Why do Americans want their country to do this?
Or is it done against their will?
Because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
...
Well personally I don't hate America for being prosperous, and I am not jealous about their prosperity (actually I personally am as well off, or better, as the average American anyway). I have nothing against them having a nice lifestyle their and doing whatever they like within the borders of their own country.
There are a few things about America that I admire and would like to see more of in Europe, but I am not jealous about it, per se.
I can see that people in less prosperous part of the world might feel pure jelaousy towards material prosperity in America though, and I think many in the the Moslem world are disgusted by what they percieve as a very promiscuous and excessive lifestyles in America; spurred on by media. They feel threatened that these values are imposed from the outside, on their own countries.
My own issue is simply with the USAs military presences outside of its' own borders... and with some aspects of its' foreign policy, such as serious meddliing in the affairs of other countries, imposing all encompassing economical sanctions on countries they don't like, etc.
(I just read in the paper today that the USA had set up an office in Oslo to spy on Norwegian citizens, without bothering to inform the state there. It was just discovered and Norwegians are pretty upset. If it goes on there, then its safe to say it goes on in every single European country. Norway is my neighbour/brother country - very fond of it. They should not be spied on by anyone!)
Hmm.. a nice hopping from "no, I'm not brainwashed" through the "challenge" to "ok, I'm brainwashed". Could you spell it out for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Would you be able, at least, to provide a hint? I mean, I can provide a typical personal reason why the military bases are good. They very noticeably contribute to the local economy. The term "national reason" sounds like a pure result of brainwashing. Do you have any idea what the national reasons might be? Those are, in fact, a biased interpretation of some decisions by a group of politicians fighting with another group of politicians over the influence. As an intelligent person, you might realize there are pros and cons to just about anything done on the political arena. The decisions are made based on many [sometimes contradicting] factors. Subsequently, the decisions are presented in various ways with various interpretation. Please-please-please, when you reason with people, try to avoid the term "national reasons/interests/etc." as that would be an insult to their intelligence. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Why not? If they have nothing to hideQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
except for me and my monkey? ;)
Let's bring back those Russian spies to the USA then. Maybe they can live next to you and use your PC and wireless connection, and pass back the latest news on your movements to spying headquarters in Moscow! You haven't got anything to hide, do you?
It's impossible to argue with you about this Croc, because you essentially see the US and it's military as a power of goodness to be embraced by all the world, while I don't! It's great that you like your new home country, and you are sure going all the way with the US patriotism. Good for you, but like I said, I don't like it.
Just in case there is any confusion: I don't want any Russian, Chinese or other spies, bases etc in my backyard either!
However, by far the biggest culprits on this front is the USA. Russia packed up its bases from Europe in the early 90s and the USA should have done the same. We don't need them and France and UK have nukes enough to defend Europe.
I'll explain the national reasons some other time, it's a bit complex and long winded and I doubt anyone else is interested. But it sure p-d me off to learn about it.
Ah? When have I ever said the US is a power of goodness? That's another sign you've been brainwashed: you think whoever disagrees with the propaganda you believe in would surely believe in the other side propaganda. :) Also, my new home is not the US, so unfortunately you've been mistaken in that as well. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
No, I haven't. In fact, I don't need to wait for the spies to use my PC as they have much more powerful PC and I would really like to use theirs. ;) Also, almost everything you do in the Internet would be kept in logs and almost any [seemingly secured] data transfer could be recorded and decoded. The real spies use different types of connection. :) Also, it's well-known that most of the information could be dug up from the legitimate sources, no need for conspiracy. The latter is used for the disinformation of their own governments to justify the maintenance of the headquarters. Most of the operational costs are covered by the fully legitimate sources, so no connection with the spying state could be detected. I'm pretty sure the loss of the so-called 'Russian spies' that you mentioned had not disrupted to the least the information flow and the analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Well, Lampada hadn't banned both of us so far, so I can say with some degree of confidence she would not ban you for explaining the national interests either. Also, if the explanation is so complex as you said, you can open a new thread about the national interests and whoever is bored with that topic would just skip it. You challenged me, remember? So, now it's your turn not to evade the answer. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Ok I'll answer your question about that other stuff later. (don't have time today).
As for the rest: I don't like to argue for the sake of it. I have already explained my view and nothing so far has convinced me to change my mind.
I am personally convinced that the Europe would be a better place if the USA withdraw its bases from it, and that the world would be a better place if the US stopped starting wars and getting involved in conflicts far from its own territory.
I have no extremist views and I don't wish America bad in any way.
But I think that if Americans thought about it objectively they'd probably prefer their tax money to be spent on something better than supporting the war industry, creating mayhem abroad and making them inpopular in large parts of the world.
Yeah... as they say: don't underestimate the power of the brainwashing... :) People pick up their opinions easily and arbitrarily, but are very reluctant to re-evaluate them. QED. *)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Yeah but this is a fruitless discussion. We're just going round in circles.
Face-to-face over a nice dinner I'd enjoy this discussion though! Maybe sometime!!!