Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42

Thread: Статья Илларионова

  1. #1
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12

    Статья Илларионова

    Andrei Illarionov recently wrote an article, which I've posted below (it was originally in Russian in Kommersant). In this piece, it struck me that in several places he seemed to be "out of touch" with average Russians; not necessarily even in the points he was making but even in the WAY he tried to persuade people -- he points out for instance Khodorkovsky (collapse of Yukos/Siberian imprisonment) and Ukraine (Orange Revolution/Gas Dispute) several times. His support of these matters seems to have ZERO support in Russian society in general. Any way, what this is leading to is this: he mentions 1917 and 1991 -- two years that I think most Russians identify with, but he also notes 1905 (the revolt/strike/creation of the Duma). Does this year carry the same significance as the other two that were mentioned -- if you mention it to a Russian, will they typically know what you are talking about/ have some sort of association/feeling for it?

    TEXT:
    New York Times
    February 4, 2006
    Russia Inc.
    By ANDREI ILLARIONOV
    MOSCOW
    Andrei Illarionov was an economic adviser to President Vladimir Putin of Russia until resigning in protest in December. The article, a version of which originally appeared in the Russian newspaper Kommersant, was translated by The International Herald Tribune from the Russian.

    RUSSIA today is not the same country it was only six years ago, when Vladimir Putin became president. Back then, the country was unsettled, tumultuous and impoverished, but it was free. Today Russia is richer ­ and not free.

    A new model of Russia has taken shape. The state has become, essentially, a corporate enterprise that the nominal owners, Russian citizens, no longer control. Indeed, changes in legislation and limitations on political freedoms have effectively devalued the shares in this company ­ call it Russian State ­ that ordinary Russians hold, while an elite class of investors enjoys ever increasing privileges.

    State-owned companies have become the assault weapons of this corporate state. Having mastered the main principle of state-corporatism ­ "privatize profit, nationalize loss" ­ they have turned to taking over private-sector companies, sometimes at cut-rate prices. Their victims include major industrial companies like Yuganskneftegaz, Sibneft, Silovye Mashiny, Kamov, OMZ, and Avtovaz.

    Companies that are still in private hands resemble ever more closely their state-owned siblings. Any request from the state ­ whether it's a donation to a project or the sale of the company itself to "correct" buyers ­ is fulfilled. The fate of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the chief executive of the Yukos oil company who is now in a penal colony after falling out with the Kremlin, is known to all.

    Meanwhile, a guiding principal of Russia's new economic model is selectivity. One company is confronted with the maximum possible (and sometimes impossible) tax bill; another gets unique exemptions. One company is forbidden to sell shares to foreigners; another gets overwhelming state support for such a move (along with financing beyond any limits set by law). One company is not allowed to hire foreign workers; another is encouraged to do so. One set of buyers pays one price; another, five times as much.

    It is not only economic freedom that has disappeared in Russia. Political freedom is also gone. The human rights monitor Freedom House last year moved Russia from the group of "partly free" countries to the "not free" group, which includes Cambodia, Rwanda and Sudan.

    Politically, the corporate ideology may seem unclear: it does not look communist, or liberal, or nationalistic, or imperial. Instead, it is an ideology of "nash-ism," or in English, "ours-ism," in which subsidies, credits and powers are handed out to those who are "nashy."

    This ours-ism does not know national or ethnic boundaries. The former chancellor of a foreign country is made a member of the corporation and becomes "our man in Europe." Meanwhile, a Russian businessman who created a company that brought billions into the national treasury turns out to be an "other" and is exiled to the depths of Siberia.

    The entire might of the Russian State is thrown behind "our" members of the corporation, whether this means refusing to allow Kazakhoil to travel to Lithuania via a Russian pipeline, switching off electricity to Moldova or waging a "gas war" against Ukraine. Russian imperialism has taken a distinctly corporate image.

    The point of the new model is to redistribute resources to "our own." The rule of law is only for civilized countries. Fair business practices are only for countries that want to catch up with the developed world. Good relations with foreign neighbors are necessary only if Russia is interested in long-term development. The corporation has other goals.

    Is it only in Russia that this model exists? No, there are other countries like this: Libya and Venezuela, Angola and Chad, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Russia is one of them now. And yes, this politico-economic model can last for quite some time. In some OPEC countries it has survived for a third of a century; in Venezuela, for half a century. It can survive even without high prices for energy. Cuba and North Korea have even more impressive models, and they don't even have oil. And then, of course, there was the Soviet version of this model.

    So from a historical point of view, there's nothing particularly novel about the new Russian model. But choosing it today, at the outset of the 21st century, is nothing other than deliberately choosing the third-world model. More precisely, the model of a very specific group of countries in the third world whose long-term prospects are well known no matter how much money they get from oil, no matter how many pipelines they control at home and abroad, and no matter what saccharine stories they tell on TV.

    It is a historical dead end. No country that has set off on this road has become richer or stronger or more developed. Nor will Russia. It will fall farther behind. And the price will be paid, as usual, by Russian citizens.

    In a democracy, political change is linked to a change of rulers, which occurs regularly and at minimal social cost. In countries with limited freedom, a change of rulers also occurs ­ as with the "velvet revolution" in Czechoslovakia and the "orange revolution" in Ukraine ­ but the social costs are much higher.

    Measures that the corporation has taken to prevent a similar revolution make change highly unlikely in Russia in the short term. But power will shift ­ sooner or later. When it does happen, it may not be as velvet. In this case, the cost to the country will be incomparably higher.

    It is difficult to say when or how this change of power will occur. For those who cannot accept a corporate state, or the Venezuelization of the economy, or the degradation of social life, the current situation seems nauseating: before there can be a deed, there must be a word, and the most important mass media are under the corporation's control.

    But one can start one's own separation from such a state through a campaign of non-participation. In this way, working from below, one can begin to restore civil, political and economic freedoms, freedoms that were offered to Russian citizens in 1905, 1917 and again in 1991, but squandered. If we succeed, we may get a new Russia ­ free, open and tolerant. A dynamic, developed and steady country, standing on its own feet, genuinely respected by its neighbors. A country with a future. Another country.
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  2. #2
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    It is not only economic freedom that has disappeared in Russia. Political freedom is also gone. The human rights monitor Freedom House last year moved Russia from the group of "partly free" countries to the "not free" group, which includes Cambodia, Rwanda and Sudan.
    This "freedom House" is too well-known as CIA propaganda branch, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    This ours-ism does not know national or ethnic boundaries. The former chancellor of a foreign country is made a member of the corporation and becomes "our man in Europe." Meanwhile, a Russian businessman who created a company that brought billions into the national treasury turns out to be an "other" and is exiled to the depths of Siberia.
    This Russian businessman did not *create* company -- he *stole* it from state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    Is it only in Russia that this model exists? No, there are other countries like this: Libya and Venezuela, Angola and Chad, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
    Not to mention USA and EU...

    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    Russia is one of them now. And yes, this politico-economic model can last for quite some time. In some OPEC countries it has survived for a third of a century; in Venezuela, for half a century. It can survive even without high prices for energy. Cuba and North Korea have even more impressive models, and they don't even have oil. And then, of course, there was the Soviet version of this model.
    So, maybe it is not so bad model at all?
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  3. #3
    Завсегдатай mishau_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ордынская Московия
    Posts
    2,451
    Rep Power
    12
    Hey, it seems I found the Russian original!

    http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=642781
    English Edition

    В обычных странах церковь отделена от государства, а в России - от Бога.

  4. #4
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    257
    Rep Power
    10
    I'm not going to answer on behalf of all Russians. But I treat 1905 (aka revolution of 1905) events as times of strikes and turmoil among factory workers. Since Wikipedia is trendy now, here's hte link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Revolution
    Единственное, что люди любят давать бесплатно - это советы.

  5. #5
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisquit
    I'm not going to answer on behalf of all Russians. But I treat 1905 (aka revolution of 1905) events as times of strikes and turmoil among factory workers. Since Wikipedia is trendy now, here's hte link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Revolution
    Fair enough -- yours is only one opinion out of 140 million or so. And, yes, I actually visited that same link yesterday, just to refresh my memory.

    As for Scorpio's comments, that's fine to comment on the article as a whole -- this is the political forum after all, but my question still stands -- to the Russians out there, does 1905:
    a) immediately come to mind as a historic date?
    and
    b) what significance do you attach to it?

    And thanks to Mishau for coming up with the Kommersant original. (Also, off topic, but I don't get your siggy?)
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  6. #6
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    379
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    but my question still stands -- to the Russians out there, does 1905:
    a) immediately come to mind as a historic date?
    and
    b) what significance do you attach to it?
    a) Yes.
    b) Beginning of the end of the Tsarist Russia

  7. #7
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    Russia is one of them now. And yes, this politico-economic model can last for quite some time. In some OPEC countries it has survived for a third of a century; in Venezuela, for half a century. It can survive even without high prices for energy. Cuba and North Korea have even more impressive models, and they don't even have oil. And then, of course, there was the Soviet version of this model.
    So, maybe it is not so bad model at all?
    Uhh... you want your country to be like North Korea?
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  8. #8
    Завсегдатай mishau_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ордынская Московия
    Posts
    2,451
    Rep Power
    12
    Uhh... you want your country to be like North Korea?
    No, no, like Moldova which is the poorest country in Europe or like Turkmenistan in which the retired have had their pensions annuled.
    English Edition

    В обычных странах церковь отделена от государства, а в России - от Бога.

  9. #9
    Властелин
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,437
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    As for Scorpio's comments, that's fine to comment on the article as a whole -- this is the political forum after all, but my question still stands -- to the Russians out there, does 1905:
    a) immediately come to mind as a historic date?
    There's even a metro station in Moscow named "улица 1905 года" (and the street itself of course).
    "Happy new year, happy new year
    May we all have a vision now and then
    Of a world where every neighbour is a friend"

  10. #10
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    Russia is one of them now. And yes, this politico-economic model can last for quite some time. In some OPEC countries it has survived for a third of a century; in Venezuela, for half a century. It can survive even without high prices for energy. Cuba and North Korea have even more impressive models, and they don't even have oil. And then, of course, there was the Soviet version of this model.
    So, maybe it is not so bad model at all?
    Uhh... you want your country to be like North Korea?
    Why necessary North Korea?
    Why not, for example, USA, or most developed countries of Europe? All these countries have some model of state-controlled capitalism -- precisely the same economic formation Illarionov is hating so much. Being a typical narrow-minded bigot, he just can't see the obvious.

    BTW, I don't know absolutely, what is happening in North Korea *in fact*. Maybe life's there is much better, than depicted by propaganda...
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  11. #11
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Hmm, so your question was about the year 1905 actually? Sorry, if I missed this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    Any way, what this is leading to is this: he mentions 1917 and 1991 -- two years that I think most Russians identify with, but he also notes 1905 (the revolt/strike/creation of the Duma). Does this year carry the same significance as the other two that were mentioned -- if you mention it to a Russian, will they typically know what you are talking about/ have some sort of association/feeling for it?
    Briefly speaking, not much. This is just a commonly-known historic date.
    As Friendy already noted, there is a lot of placenames in Moscow associated with first Russian revolution -- "Улица 1905 года", metro station "Баррикадная", even the name "Красная Пресня" has something to do with these events (before this old part of Moscow was just "Пресня" without colour). Maybe it is one of the reasons, why this revolt is still remembered.
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  12. #12
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    BTW, I don't know absolutely, what is happening in North Korea *in fact*. Maybe life's there is much better, than depicted by propaganda...
    Well, you can extrapolate that logic to absolutely everything in the world. Maybe life in the USA is 100000000000x better than depicted in "propaganda"? Have you been to the U.S. to find out? Maybe they are hiding from you how good it is, because they don't want you to come here.

    It is very curious that people are talking about propaganda all the time. Are you saying that every single media outlet is propaganda? You must differ between propaganda and bias. Saying that this and that is american (or western) propaganda is not only oversimplifying but very naive. One thing the americans are blessed with is a relative high freedom of speech (I say relative, because it ain't perfect, especially under this administration). We have alot of information sources to chose between, so please don't label our opinions as influenced by propaganda, because you don't know where our information comes from.

    And, believe it or not, YOU are another source of information for us That is why we are here, to learn about Russia and their view points

    Thanks!
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  13. #13
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

    And, believe it or not, YOU are another source of information for us That is why we are here, to learn about Russia and their view points

    Thanks!
    Psshh! Shows what you know; it's obvious that these opinions on MR aren't from REAL Russians -- just artificial ones constructed through Western propaganda. It's like those buy-a-bride sites, really -- these "Russians" are actually guys named Billy Bob and Cliff who are living in the basement of the Western Information Ministry! And yes, that was sarcasm, for the uninitiated...
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  14. #14
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    french camp
    Posts
    1,234
    Rep Power
    11
    If the said "economic adviser" publicly entertains the idea that the country was "free" at any point of its history, then he is either a shameless liar or blind like a bat.
    I've got a TV, and I'm not afraid to use it

  15. #15
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    BTW, I don't know absolutely, what is happening in North Korea *in fact*. Maybe life's there is much better, than depicted by propaganda...
    Well, you can extrapolate that logic to absolutely everything in the world. Maybe life in the USA is 100000000000x better than depicted in "propaganda"? Have you been to the U.S. to find out? Maybe they are hiding from you how good it is, because they don't want you to come here.
    Well, maybe. However, I *have* more or less adequate information about USA (and even first-hands information -- I have a distant relatives living there, and can ask them). But, I have almost no information about North Korea: the only thing I know are rare media reports from TV (our, western -- they all look the same, believe me).
    Why I don't trust them much? See my comment below.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    It is very curious that people are talking about propaganda all the time. Are you saying that every single media outlet is propaganda? You must differ between propaganda and bias. Saying that this and that is american (or western) propaganda is not only oversimplifying but very naive.
    Well, maybe I'm oversimplifying all of it.
    But: I have more or less adequate view of how most of western media are depicting current-day situation in Russia -- I'm visiting frequently www.inosmi.ru and www.inopressa.ru, watching CNN and EuroNews sometimes, etc., etc. In this case I can compare information they are trying to feed me with information I receive by personal experience. So I'm quite sure, what their picture is: very biased, very inadequate and, commonly, very far from truth. (The exceptions are rare.)
    So, the question is: Is the attitute of western media toward N. Korea more adequate than their attitute towards Russia? OK, maybe it is. But, honestly I find it unprobable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    One thing the americans are blessed with is a relative high freedom of speech (I say relative, because it ain't perfect, especially under this administration). We have alot of information sources to chose between, so please don't label our opinions as influenced by propaganda, because you don't know where our information comes from.
    Hmm, so you have some source of information about, for example, routine everyday life of ordinary people of North Korea? If so, tell me, please. -- I want to know it, too!

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    And, believe it or not, YOU are another source of information for us That is why we are here, to learn about Russia and their view points
    I hope so! This is one of the things, which is keeping me attracted to this forum.
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  16. #16
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Статья Илларионова

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Well, you can extrapolate that logic to absolutely everything in the world. Maybe life in the USA is 100000000000x better than depicted in "propaganda"? Have you been to the U.S. to find out? Maybe they are hiding from you how good it is, because they don't want you to come here.
    Well, maybe. However, I *have* more or less adequate information about USA (and even first-hands information -- I have a distant relatives living there, and can ask them). But, I have almost no information about North Korea: the only thing I know are rare media reports from TV (our, western -- they all look the same, believe me).
    Why I don't trust them much? See my comment below.
    Fair enough, I don't know anyone who has been in North Korea. I can only rely on what the media reports such as the Japanese kidnapping case, various defectors (like Kim Jong Il's cook) and so on. Maybe the food crisis we hear about in North Korea is all a figment of the western propaganda machine's imagination and the tons of food the UN provided them is all a lie. I can't tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    It is very curious that people are talking about propaganda all the time. Are you saying that every single media outlet is propaganda? You must differ between propaganda and bias. Saying that this and that is american (or western) propaganda is not only oversimplifying but very naive.
    Well, maybe I'm oversimplifying all of it.
    But: I have more or less adequate view of how most of western media are depicting current-day situation in Russia -- I'm visiting frequently www.inosmi.ru and www.inopressa.ru, watching CNN and EuroNews sometimes, etc., etc. In this case I can compare information they are trying to feed me with information I receive by personal experience. So I'm quite sure, what their picture is: very biased, very inadequate and, commonly, very far from truth. (The exceptions are rare.)
    So, the question is: Is the attitute of western media toward N. Korea more adequate than their attitute towards Russia? OK, maybe it is. But, honestly I find it unprobable.
    So, what it all boils down to is the you feel the western media, or should we say the non-Russian media, is painting a picture of Russia which does not correspond to your personal first-hand experience? It would be intersting to know what specific meida story you are talking about, with which you have personal experience! The problems with the websites you mentioned (those that translate foreign news about Russia into Russian), are 1: News about a foreign country is only news when something bad/scandalous happens (automatic negative tilt) 2: Although they provide the name of the newspaper who published it, you don't know their bias. Make sure you read serious publishers that are considered unbiased. 3: If I was to read all the articles about America in Russian newspapers (which I periodically do), I would have a very different view on America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Hmm, so you have some source of information about, for example, routine everyday life of ordinary people of North Korea? If so, tell me, please. -- I want to know it, too!
    Well, once I come across an article about North Korea, from my so-called unbiased sources (or should I say, biased to my liking ) I will let you know. Frankly, I don't really care to have daily updates on North Korean life.
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  17. #17
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13
    Well, I have some comments. But let's begin with North Korea...

    I tried a quick Yahoo search, and quickly found NKZone (http://www.nkzone.org/nkzone/). This is blogsite, obviously owned and run not by N.-Korean authorities, and definitely having more pro-american, than pro-"official north-korean" bias. And yes, even despite this, I found a lot of interesting (and previously unknown to me) on the very first page:

    * The huge article entitled "Chinese penetration of North Korea".
    According to it, there is "rapid grow of Chinese investments in North Korea". (And if these number are true, "rapid" is even too weak word):

    + 2003 - Chinese investment was just $1.1 million;
    + 2004 - Chinese investment in the economy reached US$50 million.
    + This year, the figure will be $85-90 million.

    $90 million of foreign investments? For a little country, without significant natural resources, this is a very serious success! Taking into account well-known Chinese pragmatism, they'll never invest money in this country, if they do not have reasons to, aren't they?
    (BTW, all foreign investments in Georgia in 2004: 90-100 mln euro, is I can remember...)

    * Another article: "Consumption goods as status symbols in NK".
    Well, too much surprise, there are consumption goods and this country -- and not so little of them:

    Nowadays TV sets can be found in approximately 40 percent of North Korean households, but they are very unevenly spread across the country.

    * "NK Markets" (huge and mostly technical economic revue). Let me quote a little:

    "Recently it has become clear: despite Pyongyang’s frequent protestations to the contrary, capitalism has been re-born in North Korea. The old socialist state-managed economy is almost dead, and the ongoing economic activity is largely private in nature."

    * An article about tourism in N-Korea:

    "Excluding South Koreans, North Korea is estimated to be getting 50,000 to 100,000 visitors a year of whom about 40% are from China and represent cross-border travel. Others come from Japan (about 2,000 per year), Russia, Hong Kong and Macau."

    Oh, what an unfriendly closed country...

    * And another article: "North Korea is living through a foreign language boom". Hmm, surprise on surprise. The poor north-koreans aren't slowly dying from starvation or preparing to wage war against rest of the world -- they are learning foreign languages instead.

    Finally, the perfect article written by some Eric Sirotkin (despite his obviously Russian last name, he's living in Mexico):
    Myths of the Hermit Kingdom: A Sojourn of Truth to North Korea (http://www.nkzone.org/nkzone/files/myth ... olumns.doc)

    OK, lets stop here. I can add much more links (I'm just began to explore this site), but I hope this is enough. My conclusion: the most of mainstream media reports about situation in North Korea are *very* far from truth. Anybody's going to argue?
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  18. #18
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    15
    Wohoo!! In the last two years things have been improving in North Korea! Oh, let us all just become North Korean then! It obviously is a better place. And that is if we were going to accept what you said! And we won't!

    I like how you copied one thing from the articles and left out everything else, which was the whole point of the article in the first place. Talk about misquoting!

    Further from the "Chinese penetration of North Korea".

    Foreign powers traded with North Korea because this was seen as a way to increase influence there. And it seems the same motivation is behind the present-day Chinese trade boom. So it comes as no surprise that South Korean officials, journalists and academics in the last two years have begun to talk about China's "neo-colonial push" toward North Korea.

    There are reasons for this suspicion. China has both serious incentives to keep North Korea afloat, and the ability to do so. The strategic goals of China are influenced by its rivalry with the United States. This rivalry lacks the intensity of the Cold War once waged by the Russians and Americans, but it is real nonetheless.

    Since a unified Korea (should it ever happen) is likely to remain under a strong American influence, and perhaps even have a continuing US military presence, its unification would mean a deterioration of China's strategic position. In 1950, China chose to fight a major war to prevent exactly this - the unification of the Korean peninsula under a pro-US government.

    The continuing survival of North Korea is also important for Chinese domestic policy. In spite of all its economic successes, the communist government still has concerns over internal stability, and the collapse of another communist regime might have consequences for Chinese internal stability.

    Importantly, China has the means to support the North Korean regime. After all, one or two billion dollars a year are sufficient to keep Pyongyang afloat. This is a large sum, but quite affordable for China. If North Korea receives such a regular subsidy, in all probability it will try to re-start the former system of complete state control and rationing of consumer goods. Even though this is incompatible with economic growth, it will help keep the populace both alive and obedient.


    It puts those cold, hard numbers in some new light, no?

    Further from the "houshold goods"

    Only a tiny fraction of all North Korean households own all these “contraptions”. In the mid-1990s, the average black market cost of the entire package was 30,000 won or, roughly, some 30 (!) times the monthly salary of an average worker. Measured against South Korean criteria, this would be roughly equivalent to 600 million won! Nowadays, the figures have changed, but proportions have remained essentially the same.

    ...

    Even though the North began colour broadcasting before the South, the old-style black-and-white TVs still outnumber colour sets. Most of the TVs are old, imported from the “fraternal socialist countries” (especially Romania and the USSR) or locally assembled. The elite families have Japanese sets which are seen as an important status symbol. Watching a Japanese TV in the North is roughly similar to driving a Grandeur in the South.

    The joy of being N. Korean!

    "NK Markets"

    But the new North Korean capitalism of dirty market places, charcoal trucks, and badly dressed vendors with sacks of merchandise on their backs demonstrates one surprising feature: it has a distinctly female face. Indeed, women are overrepresented in the growing North Korean post- Stalinist economy.
    [...] [this article is essentially about how things got so bad that women have started to work by selling homemade food. Yay N. Korea. The author meant capitalism in an ironic way]

    And then things began to fall apart. The collapse of the USSR brought a sudden end to the flow of the Soviet aid (which was, incidentally, happily accepted but never publicly admitted by the North Korean side). This triggered an implosion of the North Korean economy. In the early 1990s people discovered that the rations were not enough for survival, and thus something had to be done.

    I couldn't find the article about tourists, so I can't comment on that.

    "North Korea is living through a foreign language boom"

    You take one sentence from a whole article about Chinese penetration in N. Korea, which you had quoted in the first "example" of yours, and you expect to offer that as proof that the Korean are having so much fun, they have started learning foregin languages? No numbers, no info, just that one sentence. pleeeeeaase


    ----

    I am anticipating your: Well it is from a pro-american site!
    Then why do you quote it? It is like if there was an article: "All Americans have prositutes as their number one complaint about life in the U.S." [entirely fictional] and you just quote "All americans have prostitutes". Prrrooof!

    ----

    Summasumarium, from the articles you have referenced it seems like the only reason why the North Korean government hasn't collapsed long time ago is thanks to 1) Soviet Union foreign aid (up to 1991) 2) China foreign aid. And you want your country to be more like North Korea?
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  19. #19
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Wohoo!! In the last two years things have been improving in North Korea! Oh, let us all just become North Korean then! It obviously is a better place. And that is if we were going to accept what you said! And we won't!
    Lots, lots of sarcasm, I see...

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    I like how you copied one thing from the articles and left out everything else, which was the whole point of the article in the first place. Talk about misquoting!
    No, what I was looking for were pure *facts* -- and what you're pointing to is author's *interpretation* of them. This is the important difference! Yes, of course: author can interpret (or misinterpret) facts in any way he want... but so can I.
    So, lets look closer to facts and authors opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Further from the "Chinese penetration of North Korea".

    (part of quote skipped...)

    Importantly, China has the means to support the North Korean regime. After all, one or two billion dollars a year are sufficient to keep Pyongyang afloat. This is a large sum, but quite affordable for China. If North Korea receives such a regular subsidy, in all probability it will try to re-start the former system of complete state control and rationing of consumer goods. Even though this is incompatible with economic growth, it will help keep the populace both alive and obedient.


    It puts those cold, hard numbers in some new light, no?
    No, not quite.
    As I said above, author can't deny the obvious numbers... but (yes, this is "pro-american" site, remember? ), he have freedom to make speculations and jump on conclusions So, to explain this facts:
    1) He supposes, that China can have some political reasons to support N. Korea, besides pure economic ones. Maybe. Why not? I can remember a lot of countries (I can list them), supported by Europe or by USA by obvoiusly political reasons. Why China is worse?
    2) He says: "collapse of another communist regime might have consequences for Chinese internal stability". Yes, China is interested in political stability of its neighbours. Quite as any sane country.
    3) But all of these can't explain, why Chinese *private sector* is making investments in N-Korean economy. The private enterprise doesn't care much about political interests, it needs profit! So, if *private Chinese company* is making investments in N. Korea... do I need to repeat what I said above?
    BTW, as obvious from the paragraph quoted, the author definitely need to read some basic books about economics. He can't see difference between "subsidies" ("...receives such a regular subsidy") and investments. He also don't seem to understand, what money he's talking about is not "quite affordable for China" -- but quite affordable even for *Chinese private sector*, which makes a difference.
    4) Summary: the author is deeply insatisfied by the fact, what the N-Korean economy is still alive, and even growing -- and, worse of all, without USA participation! Depressing, isn't it?
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  20. #20
    Завсегдатай Scorpio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,505
    Rep Power
    13
    Now, lets talk about "houshold goods"...

    Only a tiny fraction of all North Korean households own all these “contraptions”. In the mid-1990s, the average black market cost of the entire package was 30,000 won or, roughly, some 30 (!) times the monthly salary of an average worker.
    First, in the "mid-1990s" -- means 10 years ago.
    Second, do you know what "black market" is?
    The "black market" is the place, where the people having *lots* of money (with not very clear origin) can buy anything they want, and quickly, but for a very high price. This doesn't mean, what people with less income can't afford this goods -- this only means, what purchasing them is more complicated, and may require more time and efforts. Anybody living in former USSR can explain in detail, what I'm talking about.

    Even though the North began colour broadcasting before the South
    A bit of shocking fact, isn't it?

    the old-style black-and-white TVs still outnumber colour sets. Most of the TVs are old, imported from the “fraternal socialist countries” (especially Romania and the USSR) or locally assembled.
    That's why I *like* the western consumer society. Anybody owning the TV-set older than several years is total loser, isn't he?

    Believe, there's a lot of familes here, in Russia, who still owning and using old, Soviet-made TV sets. Most of the people I know perfectly can afford a newer TV, they just perfectly satisfied with old ones.

    The elite families have Japanese sets which are seen as an important status symbol. Watching a Japanese TV in the North is roughly similar to driving a Grandeur in the South.
    I'm not surprised... the Japanese video equipment is definitely overpriced, compared even with South-Korean ones.

    But the new North Korean capitalism of dirty market places, charcoal trucks, and badly dressed vendors with sacks of merchandise on their backs demonstrates one surprising feature: it has a distinctly female face. Indeed, women are overrepresented in the growing North Korean post-Stalinist economy.
    Oh, how touching... "dirty market places", "charcoal trucks", "badly dressed vendors", "women are overrepresented", etc., etc.
    But do you know how Chinese economics looked only 10 years ago? Exactly like North Korean is looking now, with dirty markets, charcoal trucks, women selling homemade food and so on. And in Russia in start of 90's everything was almost the same, except, probably, "charcoal trucks". So?
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: March 9th, 2009, 07:56 PM
  2. Replies: 61
    Last Post: June 6th, 2008, 07:45 PM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: June 2nd, 2006, 03:27 PM
  4. Вненаучная статья
    By Rtyom in forum Fun Stuff
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: March 9th, 2006, 07:48 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 5th, 2005, 03:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Russian Lessons                           

Russian Tests and Quizzes            

Russian Vocabulary