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Thread: Будущее Евросоюза.

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Будущее Евросоюза.

    Новый для меня термин "евроскептики" всплыл вчера в новостях.
    На парламентских выборах в Финляндии националистическая партия ЛЕВОГО! толка «Истинные финны» набрала третье место, что позволит им войти в коалиционное правительство. Это самый крупный успех для подобных движений в Европе.

    На выборах в финский парламент третье место заняла националистическая партия

    Активисты этой партии выступают против предоставления финансовой помощи проблемным южным регионам Евросоюза, таким как Португалия и Греция.

    « Мы работаем в поте лица в тяжёлых климатических условиях , многие – в полярной ночи . А эти люди (греки и португальцы) танцуют и пьют вино на наши деньги. Если у них нет работы – пусть едут к нам рубить лес»

    Кроме того, «Истинные финны» выступают за ужесточение миграционной политики. Похоже, используется старый добрый лозунг «Финляндия для финнов».

    Такие и похожие настроения не локализованы исключительно в Финляндии. Тут можно вспомнить результаты выборов в местные органы власти во Франции, где на мартовских выборах Национальный фронт Марин Ле Пен показал третий результат, а ее личный рейтинг опережает рейтинг действующего президента Николя Саркози. В начале апреля на президентских выборах за нее были готовы проголосовать 23% французов, за Саркози — 21%. В прошлом году националисты — партия «Йоббик» — вернулись в парламент Венгрии впервые со времени Второй мировой войны. Ультраправая австрийская Партия свободы также уверенно держится в числе лидеров: на выборах в нижнюю палату парламента в 2008 г. она получила третье место.

    Собственно, состоятельность Евросоюза, как политической конфедерации сейчас находится под весьма большим вопросом. Если в Германии (которая уже и так крайне недовольна тем, что именно она выступает чаще всего в качестве "донора" для проблемных регионов) в правительстве произойдут подобные перемены, то Евросоюз может прекратить своё существование.
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    Завсегдатай BappaBa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    ...националистическая партия ЛЕВОГО! толка «Истинные финны»...
    Это как? Левые всегда считались интернационалистами, борцами за социальное равноправие.

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    Старший оракул CoffeeCup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    Новый для меня термин "евроскептики" всплыл вчера в новостях.
    Довольно известный (можно даже сказать - бородатый) термин.

    В выходные видел в вестях сюжет про выборы в Финляндии, что меня поразило, так это то, что лидер Истинных Финнов (Бельгиец по происхождению) довольно неплохо сам говорил по-русски с Российским журналистом. А добило меня то, что после Истинного Финна интервью взяли у Министра окружающей среды Паулы Лехтомяки, которая тоже с легкостью изъяснялась по-русски.
    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BappaBa View Post
    Это как? Левые всегда считались интернационалистами, борцами за социальное равноправие.
    Самое смешное, что они позиционировали себя как левые.
    Отсюда: True Finns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The party combines left-wing economic policies with strongly conservative social values, and has characterised itself as a "national populist" party.

    Социальное равноправие - да, но только для финнов. Национал-социализм в чистом виде... что-то это мне напоминает.
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    Завсегдатай mishau_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeCup View Post
    А добило меня то, что после Истинного Финна интервью взяли у Министра окружающей среды Паулы Лехтомяки, которая тоже с легкостью изъяснялась по-русски.
    Готовятся к наплыву трудовых ресурсов из России. ))
    English Edition

    В обычных странах церковь отделена от государства, а в России - от Бога.

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    евроскептик = Я не хочу платить ваши долги.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sperk View Post
    евроскептик = Я не хочу платить ваши долги.
    Что, в целом, правильно.
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  8. #8
    Hanna
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    "Eurosceptic" is a word from British media. It means a person who is suspicious and cautious about anything related to the EU.

    I couldn't understand all what Ramil was saying, but as a footnote to this discussion, does anyone know what Finland has done to p*ss off Russia lately? The "RT" TV channel seems to absolutely hate Finland, and some other Russian media too... but I can't really work out why. After over 50 years of trying to avoid annoying Russia, it seems their policy has failed, I wonder why?

    As for the future of Europe....
    The thing is; we have NO choice. We have to support the EU whether we like it, or not.

    Germany, as the biggest and strongest country must support it, because if Germany went its own way, and became strong on its own, everybody would get nervous. A strong and influential Germany is only OK to other Europeans as long as it is the big friendly giant in the EU, dishing out money to anyone who needs it... That's exactly how it is at the moment. Germany is like the Santa Claus in the EU.... lol!

    And most of the rest of the European national states are too small to stand up to economic and other competition from Asia... to the USA and perhaps even Russia, if it returns to superpower status...

    The days when a small European country could be incredibly influential and rich on its own merits, are over.

    Only Switzerland and Norway can afford to reject the EU but it probably won't last forever.

    Norwegians have Oil and are rolling in money at the moment; and people there generally think that the EU is too aggressively capitalist etc, etc.
    The Swiss have their banks and a currency that fills a specific niche role. I am not sure what precisely they have against the EU, but there are many possibilities.

    At least half the countries are quite reluctant members... either because people in general in those countries are too Red, too Green or too Nationalist --- and because they are suspicious towards most of the other EU countries and people from other parts of Europe...

    But people are aware that not much can be done and that the EU and the Euro is the future. The EU is set up to ensure that smaller countries get a disproportionately large representation and to avoid domination by the bigger countries.

    The only way it could work properly going forward.... would be if nationalistic pride was reduced a bit in some countries, or transferred to an European level. Britain for example is literally sabotaging many EU initiatives for no reason other that the ideas are not British..

    I feel ambivalent about the EU. I was a big supporter initially when Sweden joined.. Now I am in too minds about it.

    I can't tell you what an improvement the Euro is though, just for convenience, not having to change money. It's inevitable that all the countries will have to join sooner or later, and it is to the EUs credit that it is not forcing anyone.

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Hanna, roughly, my post is about success of the True Finns party on the recent elections in Finland.
    This party, though being left-wing, expresses nationalistic views (basically 'Finland is for the Finns'), it strongly opposes immigration and also they object helping Portugal and Greece to overcome their financial problems at their costs (they drink vine and dance all the time while we have to work in severe North - why must we help them?).
    Also I mentioned recent successes of right-wing parties in Austria and Hungary and also I stated that Jean-Marie Le Pen in France now is more popular than Nicolas Sarkozy.
    There are many people in Germany (including the politicians), as I heard, who also fight against helping Greece and Portugal at the moment and generally - against being a 'donor' for poor European economies.
    I concluded that if this tendency spreads there will be no future for EU.
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  10. #10
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    they drink vine and dance all the time while we have to work in severe North - why must we help them?
    The retirement age in Greece is something like 55..... And it's always sunny and warm. Honestly, there is some merit to this argument. But the thing is; it doesn't matter what people think -- the EU is not democratic in that way... The idea of any individual country leaving EU is incredibly hard to imagine - particularly Finland which was completely in favour of joining -- they joined at the same time as Sweden 1996. Almost all Finns supported it. They use the Euro too.

    It seems completely unimaginable that the EU would disintegrate.

    (But then, that's what everyone thought about the USSR too.... So who knows??!)

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    The main reason lies in the field of economics. The rich North refuses to support the poor South. That is the problem. They don't mind European unity as long as they keep their money. Personally I don't see any future for EU in its present state. It's a confederation and confederations simply do not work. They either dissolve or turn into federations. In order to function EU needs centralized government, banking system, laws, etc. You cannot be unified 'just a bit' and keep the sovereignity at the same time.
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  12. #12
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    They either dissolve or turn into federations. In order to function EU needs centralized government, banking system, laws, etc. You cannot be unified 'just a bit' and keep the sovereignity at the same time.
    Yes, I think you are right about that...
    Right now, it's a half-way house, so to speak.
    The integration needs to be closer for there to be any point.

    I think a lot of people in Brussels ARE in fact planning a federation.
    There are several organisations for it JEF, Paneuropa etc.

    I think they are pragmatic about it, and are prepared for it to take a generation or two for people to get used to the idea.
    If they came on too strongly, then there would be a backlash.

    And some countries may end up refusing to participate, i.e. the UK - maybe the UK should apply to be an American state instead... lol.

    I think there is some mild pro-EU education in schools nowadays. When I went to school, the general idea was that we were too good for the EU... (in terms of social welfare for all, environmental support etc.) But now I hear that they have added "EU knowledge" the schedule in schools. Hardly any younger people in Sweden at least, are against the EU.

    The language issue is a major thing too.

    A union needs a common language. Right now it's rather chaotic and not much logic to what language is used to communicate within the EU.

    Who should speak what languages and when....? English works as a lingua Franca, up to a point. But not with poorly educated people, older people.... and not so much in Eastern Eastern Europe or Southern Europe.

    Statistically, the common EU language ought to be German -- it's the most commonly spoken language in Europe, followed by French, then English.

    Personally I think we should use Esperanto, seriously!!!

    Another thing is; without the freedom of movement of people in the EU, Western Europe would literally stop functioning. It's a fact that's obvious to everyone. More than half of builders, restaurant staff etc in the UK, Germany etc are from Eastern Europe.

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    Statistically, the common EU language ought to be German -- it's the most commonly spoken language in Europe, followed by French, then English.
    В Европейском союзе, а не в Европе. Самый большой язык Европы - русский (около 100 000 000 носителей). К ним можно добавить носителей белорусского и украинского языков (30 000 000 человек), которые без труда понимают русский, и, как правило,могут говорить на нём. Ещё примерно 100 000 000 человек говорят на других славянских языках. Они не понимают русский (те, кто специально не учил), но легко могут его выучить.

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I think they are pragmatic about it, and are prepared for it to take a generation or two for people to get used to the idea.
    If they came on too strongly, then there would be a backlash.
    But the time can play against the idea as well. If things go downhill with some other economy... or there is another crisis they wouldn't have the time necessary to complete the unification. Besides, nationalists are gainging more support facing the problems with immigration.
    The ideas expressed by the 'True Finns' resemble national-socialism very strongly and we both know who advocated this particular -ism in Germany not so long ago.

    Personally I think we should use Esperanto, seriously!!!
    This again is a big problem. Esperanto is great but Europe will need at least three generations to introduce a common language. It might not have this time.
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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    The thing is; we have NO choice. We have to support the EU whether we like it, or not.

    Germany, as the biggest and strongest country must support it, because if Germany went its own way, and became strong on its own, everybody would get nervous. A strong and influential Germany is only OK to other Europeans as long as it is the big friendly giant in the EU, dishing out money to anyone who needs it... That's exactly how it is at the moment. Germany is like the Santa Claus in the EU.... lol!
    And does Germany have a choice?

  16. #16
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    And does Germany have a choice?
    Well, as the biggest and richest country in Europe, they could say (essentially); "Stuff the EU & Yankees go home -- enough of foreigners, we can go it alone! Watch your back neighbours!"

    But if they turned their back against the EU, then everyone would turn against Germany and we would have a terrible situation in Europe. So even if Germany COULD do that, and some people probably want to, they know it's not worth it. As it is now, nobody dislikes Germany, but the two world wars are not forgotten and it would not take much for other Europeans to turn against DE for that reason. In England, people LOVE to bring up the war when speaking with Germans. Really bad form, I think.

    The original idea behind the EU was to tie up the French and German economies so much that they could never start a war against the other, without hurting themselves. It's worked really well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    В
    Европейском союзе, а не в Европе. Самый большой язык Европы - русский (около 100 000 000 носителей).
    That's why I am trying to learn Russian!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    That's 'True Finns' resemble national-socialism very strongly and we both know who advocated this particular -ism in Germany not so long ago.
    Well... As much as I like Finland... as you probably know, they practically invited the Nazis in during the war. There has never been any discussion or reconciliation about that in Finland - nobody feels bad about it.

    If you go to Finland, one of the things you'll notice quite quickly, is that there are practically NO immigrants. Everyone looks Nordic/Finnish. Not even any Turkish or Greek people, certainly no Black or Middle Eastern people. Just Finns essentially and a few Baltic people and Russians -- and you only realise they are not Finnish when they speak.
    They just don't like to have foreign people in their country and for various reasons, nobody has ever emigrated there, and they take almost no refugees.

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