Thread: Разные вопросы по глаголам (by tiudavidharris

Hello, i am having trouble with the following sentences
and i am wondering if i have the correct idea of using transitive verbs with там or туда
я сажаю дерево там = i am planting a tree there. is this correct?
я сажаю дерево туда = i am planting a tree that way.
я кладу мясо там = i am placing meat there. is this correct?
я кладу мясо туда = i am placing meat that way.

i am also confused with using accusative or prepositional case with the transitive verbs.
я сажаю дерево на землю = i am planting a tree toward the ground. is this correct?
я сажаю дерево на земле = i am planting a tree on the ground.
я кладу мясо на кастрюлю = i am placing meat toward the pan. is this correct?
я кладу мясо на кастрюле = i am placing meat on pan.

i believe i have something wrong because it sounds odd that transitive verbs use or answer the question of 'где' while using accusative case rather than prepositional case.
hopefully i had the right idea previously. please point out corrections, Thanks!

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

Hello, i am having trouble with the following sentences
and i am wondering if i have the correct idea of using transitive verbs with там or туда
я сажаю дерево там = i am planting a tree there. is this correct?
я сажаю дерево туда = i am planting a tree that way.
я кладу мясо там = i am placing meat there. is this correct?
я кладу мясо туда = i am placing meat that way.

I would say, in the examples above the both options are possible. But there are some subtle differences.

Using "там" with the verbs like "класть, ставить, сажать etc." conveys a more generic idea of location: it specifies "where you perform the action", "where the action takes place":
Я сажаю дерево в парке. (or) Я там сажаю дерево. - It means you are in a park now (or you are "there") and being located in the specified place, you perform planting a tree.
Using "туда" is more specific, it specifies a direction, i.e. to where you put something.
E.g., you cannot say "Я сажаю дерево в парк". But you can say: "Я сажаю дерево в землю" (into the ground).

"Я кладу мясо туда" specifies a place to where you put the meat.
"Я кладу мясо там" I think is also valid, but it is more generic (where you are used to put the meat everytime, not only for this specific occasion), so "там" denotes a static location, not a direction. And it may mean a more generic location: a room, a storage etc. where you KEEP meat.
If you specifically mean a bag or a can, then you cannot say "Я кладу мясо там". Only "туда" would be valid.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

i am also confused with using accusative or prepositional case with the transitive verbs.

Exactly the same way as you use "там" and "туда"

Accusative means direction (corresponds to "туда"). Prepostitional means location (corresponds to "там").

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я сажаю дерево на землю = i am planting a tree toward the ground. is this correct?

I would prefer "Я сажаю дерево в землю" because you insert it to inside the ground, not just onto the surface.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я сажаю дерево на земле = i am planting a tree on the ground.

It can be used when you want to specify that "You are planting a tree when you are (yourself) on the ground" or "on the earth".

Compare: Он сажает дерево на Марсе. - He is performing this being on the Mars

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я кладу мясо на кастрюлю = i am placing meat toward the pan. is this correct?

It should be "я кладу мясо в кастрюлю" - I am putting meat to inside the saucepan. Note that "кастрюля" is not any kind of pan. It is usually deep and intended for boiling (not for frying!): http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%...8E%D0%BB%D1%8F. If you mean a pan for frying or roasting, it is "сковорода": http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%...BE%D0%B4%D0%B0, which is shallow.

That is why, you say "в кастрюлю" (to inside, since it is deep) but "на сковороду" (onto the surface), depending on how you are going to cook the meat. The same is with static location:
"мясо сейчас в кастрюле" but "мясо сейчас на сковороде".

If you say "я кладу мясо на кастрюлю" it would be strange, as if the saucepan were covered, and you were putting meat onto the cover.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я кладу мясо на кастрюле = i am placing meat on pan.

It sounds extremely odd. There are two possible options I can imagine:
1) you are on the covered soucepan yourself and you perform the action when being there
2) or you do it regularly, so as if it were a normal place where you keep meat (on the cover of the saucepan).

Normally, we would never use this phrase.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

i believe i have something wrong because it sounds odd that transitive verbs use or answer the question of 'где' while using accusative case rather than prepositional case.

No, "где" uses prepositional, not accusative. It is used for STATIC LOCATIONS.
But "куда" uses accusative, and it is used for DIRECTIONS.

там, здесь relates to the static position of the subject while туда, сюда describes the destination of motion or transfer.

я сажаю дерево там - I am there and I am planting the tree.
я сажаю дерево туда - I am planting the tree in such a way that it will be there after I will finish.

The same is with your other examples.

я сажаю дерево в землю = i am planting a tree to the ground. "сажать на землю" means "to land (an airplane)"
я сажаю дерево на земле = i am on the ground and I am planting a tree.
я кладу мясо на кастрюлю = i am placing meat to the top of the pan.
я кладу мясо в кастрюлю = i am placing meat to the pan.
я кладу мясо на кастрюле = I am on the top of the pan (sitting?) and I am placing meat.
я кладу мясо в кастрюле = I am inside the pan (OMG!) and I am placing meat.

In addition,
I think "класть" is sometimes used instead of "хранить", "держать" (= to keep, to store) in colloquial speech. In this case it can be used with "там" (i.e. static location):
Я кладу свои книги здесь = Я храню свои книги здесь (I am keeping my books here). It means you use this place regularly, not just put something there once.

I am not sure if this usage is accepted in the literary language. But people do not always speak the literary language. At least I can hear it in colloquial speech.

thanks again боб уайтман and it-ogo!