Thread: "На" против "Для"

Конечно, неплохо бы пожить тут, чтобы улучшить язык... Проживание здесь очень много даст. Это всегда так. Для любого языка. It goes without saying.

I also found the following expression: "Когда я с тобой не чувствую себя комфортно на длительное время".
I started to belive that "на" is used when we speak about time periods. In the previous example was: на будущее and now is "на длительное время". Is this true?

Maybe you find the following link useful:
Saying 'for' in Russian

There are also some exercises for the prepositions. But I have to admit some sentences in the exercises do not sound Russian at all, it seems they were composed by a non-native speaker. Although the explanation is good enough.

Yes, it's true.

На год, неделю, день, час etc.
The same is true for планы на будущее

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Maybe you find the following link useful:
Saying 'for' in Russian

There are also some exercises for the prepositions. But I have to admit some sentences in the exercises do not sound Russian at all, it seems they were composed by a non-native speaker. Although the explanation is good enough.

Well, I think I have to point out what is wrong in the exercises, otherwise the link is not so useful.

Sentence 1 suggests:

Пишите сочинение о мире на пятницу. - No one would ever say "пишите сочинение на пятницу". Everything is odd in this phrase: the imperfective aspect ("напишите" is expected as a task given by a teacher), the imperative mood (if it has to be done in the future, not now, then imperative does not work), and "на пятницу".

A proper sentence would be: "В пятницу вы будете писать сочинение о мире" (You will write it on Friday), but it leaves no place to use "for".

And if you like to keep "for", it can be: "На пятницу нам задали написать сочинение о мире" (We have an assignment for Friday to write a composition).
Or: "Сочинение о мире запланировано на пятницу" ((writing) The composition is planned for Friday).

If a teacher gives an assignment to write a composition, it would sound as
Напишите сочинение о мире к пятнице. ("by Friday", not "for Friday") - so, no place to use "for" again.

Sentence 2.
Won't you work for (instead of) me today?'
The Russian phrase they propose starts with "Ты не работаешь ..."

1. Why "сегодня" is missing in the translated Russian sentence? It is as logical to add it in Russian, as it is in English. Otherwise it is not clear how long one should work for them.

2. The major mistake: it should be "поработаешь" (Future). Even if it is "today", the action has not started yet. It has to be in the Future for the same reason as in the original English phrase (won't = will you not).

BTW, just noticed. "For the same reason" - "по той же причине". The preposition "for" is really overloaded in English!

Sentence 4.
I'll give you my flat for the car.

Nothing is wrong in the Russian translation. Just the original English phrase seems very odd. What is "flat for the car"?

Sentence 5.
A comma is missing before "а".

Sentence 11.
Do you know what the job for tomorrow is?'
The Russian phrase they propose starts with "Ты знаешь, что будет работа ..."

That's not in Russian again.

1. "Ты знаешь, что ..." is used to mean "Do you know that ... (some fact)".
Here, "что" does not work. "What job" - "what" is an attribute of "job". In Russian, it might be "какая работа" (adjective) or "что за работа" (a set expression which is understood as a request to specify a job).

2. If you ask "What job will be tomorrow" there is no place to use "for": Ты знаешь, что за работа (какая работа) будет завтра?
If you want to keep "for", it has to be rephrased somehow: "Do you know what job we have for tomorrow" or "Do you know what job is planned for tomorrow".

My suggestion for this exercise: "Ты знаешь, что за работа у нас ..." or "Ты знаешь, какая работа запланирована ..."

The rest of examples look good.

Боб Уайтман

How could you miss this awful sentence?

When I was sick, he read my paper for (instead of) me at the congress.

The site claims that the correct Russian would be:
Когда я заболел, он выступил за мной
на съезде.

Which is complete nonsense.

За мной there implies either the physical location like behind me or a sequence like right after me

But the whole sentence conveys the fact that the man took the sick man's place and did the sick man's job. So it has to be:

Когда я заболел, он выступил за меня
на съезде.

Yes, it should be "за меня". But where did you see "за мной"? There is a blank space which is supposed to be filled by a student.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Yes, it should be "за меня". But where did you see "за мной"? There is a blank space which is supposed to be filled by a student.

Originally Posted by iCake

The site claims that the correct Russian would be:
Когда я заболел, он выступил за мной
на съезде.

Just type за мной in the blank space for this example and it says "правильно"!
But if you type the actually correct за меня it gives you a hint '[in exchange for me]', suggesting that you reconsider your answer.

Originally Posted by iCake

Just type за мной in the blank space for this example and it says "правильно"!
But if you type the actually correct за меня it gives you a hint '[in exchange for me]', suggesting that you reconsider your answer.

Ah, I see! Sorry, I did not even think of checking the answers as well

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

I also found the following expression: "Когда я с тобой, я не чувствую себя комфортно длительное время".

На is not needed here.

The preposition "за" has a different meaning. One of its meanings is "in exchange of something". You give "спасибо" in exchange of our answers. So, the right way to say it is "спасибо за ваши ответы!"

If you pay for something, you give money in exchange of what you buy: "заплатить за обучение" - to pay for education.
"Он платит мне 10 долларов в день за мою работу" - He pays me 10 dollars a day for my work.
"Я хочу вас поблагодарить за вашу помощь" - I want to thank you for your help.

You can also use "за" in noun+noun combinations:
"деньги за работу" is "money for work" (money which is paid in exchange of work)
"5 рублей за билет" is "5 roubles for a ticket"
"благодарность за услугу" is "gratitude for service"

What the following expression means: Я перевел текст за два часа.
I cannot use: Я перевел текст на два часа?

Also what it means:
1. Он за год изучил русский язык
2. За вечер он подготовился к докладу
3. За день она выучила 25 новых слов.

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

What the following expression means: Я перевел текст за два часа.
I cannot use: Я перевел текст на два часа?

Also what it means:
1. Он за год изучил русский язык
2. За вечер он подготовился к докладу
3. За день она выучила 25 новых слов.

Я перевел текст за два часа - It took me two hours to translate the text
Я перевел текст на два часа doesn't even make much sense

Он за год изучил русский язык - It took him a year to learn Russian
За вечер он подготовился к докладу - He prepared a report over evening

За день она выучила 25 новых слов - She learned 25 new words over that day

As you see за + time shows how much time it took to do something

As you see за + time shows how much time it took to do something

My simple conclusions are:
1. за + ... = In + time period
2. на + ... = For + time period

Because I always want to verified what I learned I wrote the following expressions:
1. We opened two new factories in / during three years = Мы закрыли два новых завода за три года.
2. They have issued the new driving licence in six days = Выдали новые водительские права за шесть дней.
3. He sold his soul to the devil for 100 years = Он продал свою душу дьяволу на сто лет.
4. Can you imagine your self after 10 years = Можете представить себя после десяти лет.
5. I will finish my research in 30 days = Я закончу свое исследование за тридцать дней .
6. After the accident he couldn't walk for 5 years = После аварии, он мог ходить на пять лет .
7. The deficit will be covered in 3 years = Дефицит покроется за три года.
8. He spent three days alive in the cold see, after his boat was sunk = Он провел три дня жив в холодном море, после того как его лодка затонул.
9. Soviet Union lasted for 69 years = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик длился на шестьдесят девять лет
10. During the last five days I slept less than 10 hours = За последние пять дней я спал менее десяти часов or В течение пяти дней я спал менее чем десять часов or Во время пять дней я спал менее десяти часов

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

My simple conclusions are:
1. за + ... = In + time period
2. на + ... = For + time period

1. We opened two new factories in / during three years = Мы закрыли два новых завода за три года. - Good
2. They have issued the new driving licence in six days = Выдали новые водительские права за шесть дней. - Good
3. He sold his soul to the devil for 100 years = Он продал свою душу дьяволу на сто лет. - Good
4. Can you imagine your self after 10 years = Можете представить себя ЧЕРЕЗ десять лет.
5. I will finish my research in 30 days = Я закончу свое исследование за тридцать дней . - Good. However, this will be true if you estimate the TOTAL you need to finish your research. BUT, if you say when the research will be finished, for example, you've been working on it for some time but you say when it's finished you have to say:
Я закончу своё исследование через тридцать дней.

6. After the accident he couldn't walk for 5 years = После аварии, он НЕ мог ходить [B пять лет[/B]. You don't need any preposition before time expression here
7. The deficit will be covered in 3 years = Дефицит покроется за три года. - Good
8. He spent three days alive in the cold see, after his boat was sunk = Он провел три дня в холодном море, после того как его лодка затонула. - No need to use жив in there.
9. Soviet Union lasted for 69 years = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик просуществовал шестьдесят девять лет - No preposition needed. And длился is not good in this case
10. During the last five days I slept less than 10 hours = За последние пять дней я спал менее десяти часов or В течение пяти дней я спал менее чем десять часов or Во время пять дней я спал менее десяти часов - The first variant is just great and very natural, the second one is not that good still acceptable, although it doesn't directly say that you didn't sleep well the last five days, maybe those 5 days were 5 days from some other time in the past. The third one is not good at all.

Well, let's try to explain what each time preposition means then. I warn you it might be confusing or not accurate 100%, still it's worth a shot.

За - For me it indicates the continuity of the respected action and what I mean is that it gives me a notion that the respected action is stretched during the time stamp of the given time.

За три дня я выучил/выучу/учу 40 слов - It kind of means that you constantly learn withing those three days.

На - It's kind of for how long the action is active in the time you provide.

Его посадили (посадят/садят) на 2 года - He's been charged 2 years in prison
Статуя рассчитана на 40 лет - The statue is considered to last for 40 years.

Через - this just shows what will/does/did happen after the period of time you provided

Через десять минут будет готов завтрак - The breakfast will be fixed in 10 minutes
Он закончил говорить через десять минут - He stopped talking after 10 minutes
Я иду в школу через два дня - I'll go to school in two days

Нет предлога - Well, that's kind of tricky to explain this one. Well, it's usually used to say for how long the action is/was/will be active

Он хромал десять дней - He was limping for 10 days
Я думал пять минут - I was/have been thinking for 5 minutes
Я думаю 5 минут - I am/have been thinking for 5 minutes

Well, I don't think it's gonna help but at least I tried

За последние пять дней я спал менее десяти часов

I think I did a mistake: За последних пять дней.

iCake you have provided an excellent analysis.

And I would like to add that "На" usually is used for time periods associated with the future:
1. Я строю планы на будущее
2. Он продал свою душу дьяволу на сто лет
3. Его посадили на два года.
4. Статуя рассчитана на 40 лет
5. He will be studying for 4 years = Он будет учится на четыре года.

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

I think I did a mistake: За последних пять дней.

Um, I'm most sure I'd say за последние пять дней and not за последних пять дней. But I think both variants are possible

As for examples:

The first 4 are okay

The 5th one should be:

Он будет учится четыре года.

Because it kind of fits in this statement

Originally Posted by iCake

Нет предлога - Well, that's kind of tricky to explain this one. Well, it's usually used to say for how long the action is/was/will be active

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

I think I did a mistake: За последних пять дней.

За последние пять дней is correct. However it would be пять последних дней. The first one describes this time span as a whole, and the second one implies every of the last 5 days separately.

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

5. He will be studying for 4 years = Он будет учится на четыре года.

Он будет учиться четыре года (в течение четырех лет). Compare: Он уехал на стажировку на четыре года. I think this construction only works with perfective verbs.

Originally Posted by iCake

Он хромал десять дней - He was limping for 10 days
Я думал пять минут - I was/have been thinking for 5 minutes
Я думаю 5 минут - I am/have been thinking for 5 minutes

Only imperfective verbs here

1. We opened two new factories in / during three years = Мы закрыли два новых завода за три года.

Мы открыли два новых завода ...

Antonio, the word "против" doesn't sound quite ok in such sentences like the title of the thread.
If you want to convey the meaning of "versus", say "или".