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What is the difference between на & в?
My beginner's Russian book says that sometimes you have to use на instead of в in a sentence such as "Я иду на почта" but it does not explain why.
Is there a simple explanation to this or would it be best to leave it until I get to a more advanced study of Russian grammer?
Я иду на почтуQuote:
Originally Posted by kevinfitch
Generally:
на = on / on to
в = in / in to
в + prepositional case = in (location)
в + accusative case = (in) to (motion)
на + prepositional case = on (location)
на + accusative case = (on) to (motion)
That's the basic difference. However sometimes in English where we use "in" Russians use "on".
Basically в is used for enclosed spaces, buildings, cities, countries, towns, villages.
на is used for open spaces, if you want to specify being on top of something, for events, ect. Also islands.
Я в школе. - I'm at school.
Она живёт в Москве. - She lives in Moscow.
Елена читает в библиотеке. - Yelena is reading in the library.
Я на фестивале. - I'm at the festival.
Я часто хожу на концерты - I often go to concerts.
Птица на библиотеке - The bird is on the library (i.e. on the roof).
Я живу на Кубе - I live in/on Cuba. (Cuba is an island).
Мы были на Красной площади - We were on Red Square.
почта is used with на, it's just something you have to remember.
Я на почте. - I'm at the post office.
Я иду на почту. - I'm going to the post office.
В Гугле есть неплохой словарик с примерами.
в - http://translate.google.com/translate_d ... ir=ru%7Cen
на - http://translate.google.com/translate_d ... ir=ru%7Cen
A very strange sentence. It doesn't sound Russian and can be even incomprehensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Птица сидит на крыше библиотеки. This variant is ok.
Keeping track of на words is tricky for us foreigners. Here is a link to a partial list of them: на words.
If anyone has any additions, do let me know.
Обычно говорят в балете, в опере. Если на, то тогда нужно добавить название балета: Мы были на балете "Лебединое озеро". Что касается оперы, то, по-моему, "на опере" никогда не употребляется.
Опечатка: проспект
Почему "на работе" два раза?
на заводеQuote:
Originally Posted by doninphxaz
на фабрике
на станции (техобслуживания, водоочистки и пр.)
Но боюсь что со станциями не всё так просто. И с комбинатами тоже.
Для меняQuote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
мы были на/в опере, на балете - нормально
в балете - не очень.
в опере - отдаёт стариной и повышенной культурой :wink: ; похоже на производное от "в театре оперы и балета"
Правда? Нас учили иначе. Как вам звучит это предложение?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Вчера на опере мы впервые слушали новую певицу потрясающего таланта.
А по-моему, нормально.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Если бы я услышал фразу "мы были в балете", я бы подумал что они танцевали в балете, но никак, что они ходили смотреть балет.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Мы едем в Москву.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Мы едем в Киев.
Мы едем в Россию.
Мы едем на Украину.
Happy prepositioning! :)
Kevin,
I've put together a summary of в-на usage, along with a description of how they relate to other motion and location phrases. Go to:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~deliving/rus ... fromat.htm
As always, I'm grateful for corrections or suggestions.
Don.
What? Are you saying what I wrote was wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Украина is an excpetion taking на, and anyway, the use of в with Украина is now acceptable. I believe Putin says в Украине. But anyway, that's been discussed a number of times on this forum.
He says a lot of things...Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Для меня странно. Я бы исправила на "Вчера в опере..."Quote:
Originally Posted by doninphxaz
Кстати, вся фраза звучит немного не по-русски. "...новую певицу потрясающего таланта..." - :? :roll:
You see, if you think that Ukraine is just an exception, then here are a few more "exceptions":Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Мы едем на Камчатку.
Мы едем на Русь.
Мы едем на Смоленщину.
By the way, Putin may not be an ultimate source for linguistic wisdom.. :)
Also, don't be alarmed, I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying things are slightly more complex. Exceptions "which are there to only justify the rule" is definitely our invention. :)
Дык, Камчатка - полуостровQuote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Смоленщина - ласковое прозвище ( В Смоленскую область ...)
Suppose you're right. Then how would you explain:Quote:
Originally Posted by тыры-пыры
Мы едем в Крым.
which is also полуостров? ;)
Also "Смоленщина" is just a traditional way of defining an area. For example, in literature "Литовщина" would have a slightly negative meaning because of traditionaly tense relationships. :) Nothing "ласковое" about that. :)
I didn't say Ukraine was the only exception. The person asked a simple question and I gave a simple answer explaining the basic difference between в and на. I did not claim to have produced an exhaustive list of the uses of the two prepositions. Ukraine is an exception because almost all other countries that are not islands take в.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
A beginner at Russian can't be expected to know, or simply learn what preposition goes with each noun, if you give them basic "rules of thumb" they can make educated predictions as to what the preposition will be. Anything that doesn't fit these rules is considered an exception and is learnt as the learner comes across them. Or if you think it would be more useful go ahead and write out all the nouns in the Russian dictionary indicating whether they take в or на.
And as for в Украине. The government of Ukraine some time back asked that in Russian people said "в Украине". Thus I believe officially on documents and such, Russia will say в Украине. Obviously everyday folk still say на, but the variant with в is gaining usage.
На АляскуQuote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
В Гренландию
На Кубу
На остров Тайвань - В провинцию Тайвань ( Я из Китая 8) )
Так сложилось исторически , и будет изменяться в дальнейшем.
Официальная позиция Украины - В Украину
Литовцев не любили, поэтому и не ласково. (если точнее - воевали там часто
поэтому негативный оттенок - "сгинул на литовщине" )
Hi TATY, please don't become defensive, it's alright ... no hard feelings, eh? No one is ever trying to undermine your proficiency. Just stay cool..Quote:
...
person asked a simple question and I gave a simple answer explaining the basic difference between в and на. I did not claim to have produced an exhaustive list of the uses of the two prepositions.
...
The problem we're discussing right now is very old and I think it was made famous by Karamzin some time back. :)
In my opinion, the rule of the thumb is: do learn grammar, but it will rarely help you in practice. :) The bitter truth is that a native Russian speaker would not confuse between в and на not because he or she knows the rule, but because that's the right way to say it in Russian. So, I found that the real practical way to approach prepositions in a language is to learn passages and make use of complete phrases spiced with prepositions.
Having said that, the above rule will not help you in the short term to get good scores in your Grammar classes.. :) Therefore, for this specific purpose I'm completely with TATY on the alternative rule of the thumb. Cheers!!
Exactly!!!!! That was the entire point.Quote:
Originally Posted by тыры-пыры
И тем не менее, я бы предложил использовать правило : В страну / НА землюQuote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
I disagree with "do learn grammar but it won't help you in practice". In certain languages that may be true to a certain extent, but I disagree when it comes to Russian. The whole case system is a load of grammar and without knowing cases properly, the meanings of what someone wants to say can be greatly distorted. Russian grammar is so complex I think you have to formally learn the grammar, you can't just attempt to pick up the language by listening to it. Kids can, i.e. if you grow up as a native speaker, but even then, Russian kids get grammar lessons at school, as kids from English speaking kids get grammar lessons in English. I think the fact that native speakers of a language are formally taught grammar suggests that it is necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
The teaching of grammar is conducted by attempting to logically explain the structures, usages, ect. of a language by using a series of rules or formulae. Of course, since languages aren't sciences these rules are almost never absolute and there will always be exceptions. Some rules are better than others, some have few exceptions and can be considered proper rules, some rules are more just guidelines.
I learn Russian at university, and there has been a general trend here in Britain in the teaching of languages, both at school and in higher education, to move away from grammar and theoretical study and move towards practical study of the language. And what's happened? Standards have slipped.
I'm a super grammar fan anyway.
Hey, that's a totally different thing. I'm only skeptical of grammar helping with the everyday practical usage. And I mentioned: "do learn the grammar" because (1) in general it makes you aware of the language you use, and (2) I've been taught grammar at school and I'm pretty conservative. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
I bet that the question of why the standards have slipped is both educational and philosophical and well beyond our discussion about those prepositions. It's educational because I reckon the Ministry guys have spent days over days in meeting rooms discussing what went wrong and why. And it's philosophical because maibi ze taim haz kum tu fainali breik aurselvs fri from zose olde rules!!! :D :D :D
Well considering it took me a bit of effort to read what you wrote at the end I think that demonstrates why we have those olde rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
I don't know what you mean by "everyday practical usage". But I don't subscribe to the idea that if you can get your point across and be understood by a foreigner then nothing else matters and you can have really shit grammar.
Если хочешь и у тебя есть лишнее время, можешь не стесняться и редактировать всё, что тебе не нравится, I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Oh Dear.. C'mon, TATY don't be so dry! Have some fun! :P Apparently, next time I should be smarter to quote a person who asked a question, not the person who answered it. ;) Then a seemingly innocent comment won't cause anyone to BBQ me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Really, TATY look around! How many people you'd know around you that know English grammar pretty well, but can't maintain even the simplest conversation? I personally know a lot! That's exactly what I mean by the word "practical." And we all know that Russian is even worse with its 1001 rules and its 1002 exceptions for each rule! ;) And I also know some people who speak a lot, but most of what they say is grammatically wrong. And that's why the formal education is important. No one is denying that.
Also, please let's not go to the extremes. When did I ever say anything similar to "if you can get your point across and be understood by a foreigner then nothing else matters?" Please don't quote me on that! I remember back in school teachers used to do that a lot to us, so that they can maintain their authority. ;) This doesn't look impressive enough in adult conversations though.
Having said that, TATY please let's stop this pretty useless discussion because every one has their own taste and let's just remain friends! :wink:
Don - that site helps me a lot!Quote:
Originally Posted by doninphxaz
Thank you,
Scott