Thread: лихие поляки

Does the phrase "лихие поляки" have positive or negative connotations in the following sentence?

Меня как историка удивляют ошибки немецкого командования, но не удивляет особое мужество, безоглядная отвага, с которой сражались советские солдаты даже в безнадежном положении, в котором, скажем, лихие поляки, не говоря уже о рассудочных французах, спокойно капитулировали: к чему продолжать борбу, когда твое подразделение полностью развалилось?

The negative connotations are usually marked with " " - so if it is "лихие" поляки, no doubt it's negative. I'm not feeling positive either - why did the brave polish surrender? So I guess it's neuter.

Of course it's sarcastic.

No it is not. Рассудительные французы is not sarcastic here so why "лихие поляки" is? It's just a description.

Why рассудочные (not рассудительные) французы is not sarcastic? It is.

Ok, what does it mean 'рассудочный'? I've never heard this word before.

Видимо рассудочные - обладающие рассудком. Здесь точно употребленно с насмешкой - рассудочные сдались, в отличии от глупых, безрассудных советских.

I think рассудочный is participle of рассуждать it is something that definitely belongs to the process of thinking, рассудительный means wise, reasonable so in my opinion the word "рассудочный" makes no sence here.

This word has two different meanings: 1. evil, hard 2. valiant, intrepid. Do you think that the writer meant the second meaning?

Originally Posted by Ilkay

This word has two different meanings: 1. evil, hard 2. valiant, intrepid. Do you think that the writer meant the second meaning?

It's undoubtedly the 2nd meaning, used with a shade of irony.
The first meaning of "лихой" is out of date.

Originally Posted by Indra

Originally Posted by Ilkay

This word has two different meanings: 1. evil, hard 2. valiant, intrepid. Do you think that the writer meant the second meaning?

It's undoubtedly the 2nd meaning, used with a shade of irony.
The first meaning of "лихой" is out of date.

"Лихо" (as a noun) still means evil, grief, hardship

I agree with you about the usage in this case.

It's undoubtedly the 2nd meaning, used with a shade of irony.

I'd rather agree with JJ. There is no irony here, like there is no irony in such sentenсe:
"Хоть он и лихой вояка, но все-таки капитулировал".

It would be ironic if you knew that Poles are timid warriors. Are they?

It would be ironic if you knew that Poles are timid warriors. Are they?

the different kind of irony :P
the Poles ARE considered intrepid here.

JJ, "рассудочный" is okay here, it comes from "рассудок", not "рассуждение", Lingvo translates it as "rational, governed by the reason"

"лихой" here = bold, daring, brave
Ironically, as was already said. We even use a polishe word "гонор" ("a conceit") in Russian , so Polish are usually considered a brave reckless warriors.

Originally Posted by Indra

JJ "рассудочный" is okay here

Homie, would you say "Моя мама рассудочная"? I think you wouldn't. So "рассудочный" is not ok to a person.

Ok, земляк.
Рассудочный is applied to actions, not persons.

The word "рассудительный" has too positive meaning for the author's idea, so he chooses this one.

Рассудочный человек - I see no problem at all

Ok. What about if native Russian speakers tell what they think about "расссудительный" and "рассудочный"?

As for me, there is just a slight difference in their meanings.

"Рассудочный" is, as it was already said, "governed by reason". I can apply this word to a person. That would be ok. It will mean that the person is a strict rationalist who doesn't mention any emotion in his actions.

"Рассудительный" for me is a person who just likes to think logically before he does something.

So IMHO "рассудительный" is just a mild form of "рассудочный". There can be also a negative connotation as for "рассудочный человек" while "рассудительный человек" usually has positive connotation.

Although, other native Russians can have different opinion about that.

I agree.

Рассудочный человек sounds gay.