Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: лихие поляки

  1. #1
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Mersin, Турция
    Posts
    170
    Rep Power
    10

    лихие поляки

    Does the phrase "лихие поляки" have positive or negative connotations in the following sentence?

    Меня как историка удивляют ошибки немецкого командования, но не удивляет особое мужество, безоглядная отвага, с которой сражались советские солдаты даже в безнадежном положении, в котором, скажем, лихие поляки, не говоря уже о рассудочных французах, спокойно капитулировали: к чему продолжать борбу, когда твое подразделение полностью развалилось?

  2. #2
    JJ
    JJ is offline
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ural, Russia
    Posts
    1,390
    Rep Power
    12
    The negative connotations are usually marked with " " - so if it is "лихие" поляки, no doubt it's negative. I'm not feeling positive either - why did the brave polish surrender? So I guess it's neuter.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

  3. #3
    N
    N is offline
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    377
    Rep Power
    11
    Of course it's sarcastic.

  4. #4
    JJ
    JJ is offline
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ural, Russia
    Posts
    1,390
    Rep Power
    12
    No it is not. Рассудительные французы is not sarcastic here so why "лихие поляки" is? It's just a description.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

  5. #5
    N
    N is offline
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    377
    Rep Power
    11
    Why рассудочные (not рассудительные) французы is not sarcastic? It is.

  6. #6
    JJ
    JJ is offline
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ural, Russia
    Posts
    1,390
    Rep Power
    12
    Ok, what does it mean 'рассудочный'? I've never heard this word before.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

  7. #7
    N
    N is offline
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    377
    Rep Power
    11
    Видимо рассудочные - обладающие рассудком. Здесь точно употребленно с насмешкой - рассудочные сдались, в отличии от глупых, безрассудных советских.

  8. #8
    JJ
    JJ is offline
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ural, Russia
    Posts
    1,390
    Rep Power
    12
    I think рассудочный is participle of рассуждать it is something that definitely belongs to the process of thinking, рассудительный means wise, reasonable so in my opinion the word "рассудочный" makes no sence here.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

  9. #9
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Mersin, Турция
    Posts
    170
    Rep Power
    10

    лихой

    This word has two different meanings: 1. evil, hard 2. valiant, intrepid. Do you think that the writer meant the second meaning?

  10. #10
    Властелин
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Сварга
    Posts
    1,391
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: лихой

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilkay
    This word has two different meanings: 1. evil, hard 2. valiant, intrepid. Do you think that the writer meant the second meaning?
    It's undoubtedly the 2nd meaning, used with a shade of irony.
    The first meaning of "лихой" is out of date.

  11. #11
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    312
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: лихой

    Quote Originally Posted by Indra
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilkay
    This word has two different meanings: 1. evil, hard 2. valiant, intrepid. Do you think that the writer meant the second meaning?
    It's undoubtedly the 2nd meaning, used with a shade of irony.
    The first meaning of "лихой" is out of date.
    "Лихо" (as a noun) still means evil, grief, hardship

    I agree with you about the usage in this case.
    Anatoli - Анатолий - أناتولي - 阿纳托利 - アナトーリー - 아나톨리

  12. #12
    Почётный участник
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    77
    Rep Power
    10
    It's undoubtedly the 2nd meaning, used with a shade of irony.
    I'd rather agree with JJ. There is no irony here, like there is no irony in such sentenсe:
    "Хоть он и лихой вояка, но все-таки капитулировал".

    It would be ironic if you knew that Poles are timid warriors. Are they?

  13. #13
    Властелин
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Сварга
    Posts
    1,391
    Rep Power
    12
    It would be ironic if you knew that Poles are timid warriors. Are they?
    the different kind of irony :P
    the Poles ARE considered intrepid here.

    JJ
    , "рассудочный" is okay here, it comes from "рассудок", not "рассуждение", Lingvo translates it as "rational, governed by the reason"

  14. #14
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Montreal, QC
    Posts
    479
    Rep Power
    10
    "лихой" here = bold, daring, brave
    Ironically, as was already said. We even use a polishe word "гонор" ("a conceit") in Russian , so Polish are usually considered a brave reckless warriors.
    Find your inner Bart!

  15. #15
    JJ
    JJ is offline
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ural, Russia
    Posts
    1,390
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Indra
    JJ "рассудочный" is okay here
    Homie, would you say "Моя мама рассудочная"? I think you wouldn't. So "рассудочный" is not ok to a person.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

  16. #16
    Властелин
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Сварга
    Posts
    1,391
    Rep Power
    12
    Ok, земляк.
    Рассудочный is applied to actions, not persons.

    The word "рассудительный" has too positive meaning for the author's idea, so he chooses this one.

  17. #17
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    french camp
    Posts
    1,234
    Rep Power
    11
    Рассудочный человек - I see no problem at all
    I've got a TV, and I'm not afraid to use it

  18. #18
    Почётный участник
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    77
    Rep Power
    10
    Ok. What about if native Russian speakers tell what they think about "расссудительный" and "рассудочный"?

    As for me, there is just a slight difference in their meanings.

    "Рассудочный" is, as it was already said, "governed by reason". I can apply this word to a person. That would be ok. It will mean that the person is a strict rationalist who doesn't mention any emotion in his actions.

    "Рассудительный" for me is a person who just likes to think logically before he does something.

    So IMHO "рассудительный" is just a mild form of "рассудочный". There can be also a negative connotation as for "рассудочный человек" while "рассудительный человек" usually has positive connotation.

    Although, other native Russians can have different opinion about that.

  19. #19
    Властелин
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    french camp
    Posts
    1,234
    Rep Power
    11
    I agree.
    I've got a TV, and I'm not afraid to use it

  20. #20
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    в небе
    Posts
    2,223
    Rep Power
    13
    Рассудочный человек sounds gay.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Лихие 90-е
    By sperk in forum Translate This!
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: March 17th, 2013, 12:58 PM
  2. Лихие 90-е
    By Lt. Columbo in forum Society
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: September 18th, 2009, 06:38 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Russian Lessons                           

Russian Tests and Quizzes            

Russian Vocabulary