Thread: Вопросы по грамматике и значению слов (by Simon000001

Would there actually be an audible difference between слушаю-с and слушаюсь?

Originally Posted by bitpicker

Would there actually be an audible difference between слушаю-с and слушаюсь?

In modern language, yes! Слушаю-с - the final consonant is hard (unpalatalized), слушаюсь - the final consonant is soft (palatalized). It is very audible for Russian ear.
In older language, there was a tendency to pronounce final -сь in reflexive verbs without palatalization. But this pronunciation is outdated.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

In modern language, yes! Слушаю-с - the final consonant is hard (unpalatalized), слушаюсь - the final consonant is soft (palatalized). It is very audible for Russian ear.
In older language, there was a tendency to pronounce final -сь in reflexive verbs without palatalization. But this pronunciation is outdated.

Not completely outdated, though. As actor's speech is partially based on an old Moscow pronunciation, there's still tendency to pronounce hard reflexive suffixes among older actors. Pay attention next time you watch a movie dubbed in Russian. Good to know for a learner (not to copy the feature after that actor, at least). Fortunately, [дощ] for "дождь" is rarely heard even from those actors above 40 years old.

Wow, actually there are articles on that thing.
словоерс - Wiktionary

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

In older language, there was a tendency to pronounce final -сь in reflexive verbs without palatalization. But this pronunciation is outdated.

I doubt it was ever used in normal language. It is a part of an old theater actor school (as well as "вверьх", for example), and I have no idea where did they take such a pronunciation from.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I doubt it was ever used in normal language. It is a part of an old theater actor school (as well as "вверьх", for example), and I have no idea where did they take such a pronunciation from.

It was. The traces are still there in poetry, where some rhymes become less strict with modern pronunciation. Theatrical pronunciation was modelled after old Moscow speech (like, beginning of the 20th century).

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I doubt it was ever used in normal language. It is a part of an old theater actor school (as well as "вверьх", for example), and I have no idea where did they take such a pronunciation from.

It was part of the original dialect spoken in Moscow, before dialect levelling took place (mass migration to Moscow from other regions). Also -кой/-кый instead of -кий.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

It is very audible for Russian ear.

Too bad I don't have one of those... For a lot of consonants the distinction is basically meaningless for me.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

Too bad I don't have one of those... For a lot of consonants the distinction is basically meaningless for me.

You just need some good listening exercises.
I can record for you some, if you like.

There's an interesting article which touches this issue: http://ai.ato.ms/MITECS/Entry/hatch.html
Quotes:
For example, the linguistic rules that a person learns have the capacity to lead that individual to mis-hear speech sounds that he or she is not accustomed to hearing, while the same person has no difficulty hearing minute differences between other speech sounds that are part of his or her native tongue. Thus this segment of experience is comprehended through a complex of unconscious linguistic forms, and speakers of different languages hear these sounds differently.
...
For instance, while he argued that the speakers of different languages hear the same speech sounds differently, he also assumed that the trained linguist may discover this happening, for, with effort, it is possible to learn to hear sounds as they truly are. In a sense, the linguist is able to experience speech sounds outside of his or her own linguistic framework, and to avoid the cognitive distortions produced by culture.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

Too bad I don't have one of those... For a lot of consonants the distinction is basically meaningless for me.

Try to start pronouncing the sounds correctly yourself and you will start hearing the difference. That's how I started hearing the difference between v and w for example.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Try to start pronouncing the sounds correctly yourself and you will start hearing the difference. That's how I started hearing the difference between v and w for example.

Yes, pronouncing correctly is also important. But is does not always help to hear the difference.
For example, I am able to pronounce English final -n and -ng correctly (as in "sin" and "sing"). And I feel where my tongue is when pronouncing them.
But I still struggle to hear the difference in native speakers' speech When I hear "sin" and "sing", they often sound the same to me.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Try to start pronouncing the sounds correctly yourself and you will start hearing the difference. That's how I started hearing the difference between v and w for example.

It is hard to come by definitions what actually to do.