Printable View
I wonder if the word бы can be freely swapped with б? Like in the proverb,
Если б я знал! Было б болото, а черти найдутся. (oh BTW, what the meaning of this proverb?) OR
Если б я знал...
Is usage of бы tied to если, or can it be used with other conjunctions as well?
"б" is of colloquial style, in official it should be "бы" only. Otherwise no limitations.
"бы" expresses the idea of potential or subjunctive. It can be used even without if. Normally "бы" is used where in English "would" is used.
Я бы хотел стать звездой. - I would like to be a star.
"б" is very colloquial
if you use "бы" all the time you will make no mistake
I thought б was used to imitate speech wherein the ы vowel isn't pronounced.
The only other thing to add is that sometimes б must be used instead of бы for reasons of meter, in poetry and music. For example, there are these famous lyrics from the song "Подмосковные вечера":
Если б знали вы
Как мне дороги
Подмосковные вечера!
(If you only knew / How dear to me are / The nights in the outskirts of Moscow.)
Thanks for all the wonderful answers. I'm now clear about б and бы.
Well, it can definitely be used with the conjunctions хоть and хотя -- in both cases, the general meaning is either "even if only" or "at least".Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
Он считает, что человек должен попробовать ЛСД, хотя бы раз. (He thinks that a person ought to try LSD, even if only once.)
Other usage of бы is often phraseological.
1)There are combinations of "где бы ни", "кто бы ни", "что бы ни" etc., which means "wherever", "whoever", "whatever"...
2)"хотя бы" = "at least"
3)"Как будто" = "как будто бы" = "будто бы" = (colloquial)"как бы" = "as if"
...
There are more phrases I think.
"Если бы б меня б не трогали б, я б молчал бы".
Откуда-то из Чехова.
Hey, is that a riddle or something?:dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by wanja
This is an illustration where in the sentence you can put "бы". Basically you can put it everywhere but putting too much of it is stylistically weird. Normally it should be one "бы" at each clause.Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
This could be translated in two ways:Quote:
Originally Posted by wanja
"If they hadn't touched me, I would be quiet."
OR
"If only they hadn't touched me, I would be quiet!!!"
I'm not totally sure (without more context) about which is the better translation. For Russians, note that the difference between "if XYZ had happened" and "if only XYZ had happened" is that "only" transforms a "neutral" contrary-to-fact statement into a strongly emotional wish. In other words, the difference is not simply stylistic in English. But as far as I know, "если бы" can have both meanings.
First of all there is no literal translation for "чёрт" in English. Evil spirit or devil would be suitable but don't represent the exact meaning. You may read this (in Russian) Чёрт — Википедия. Nevertheless the meaning for черти is simple in this proverb - bad guys. Now we have a swamp. There is a belief among the eastern slavs that the favorite habitat of "chorts" -) is a swamp. Not very nice place, isn't it? In common we have bad place and bad guys. So the meaning is - if there is a bad buisness there always will be people willing to take part in it. The proverb is commonly used as a negative evaluation of a fact or phenomenon and the people having to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
Hi Zocus and welcome to the forum. Thanks for the excellent explanation of the proverb and the illustrations you gave.
There's also a very famous proverb "В тихом омуте черти водятся" (something like "Devils live in a quiet slough"), which is often used for a person, who looks simple and quiet, but is actually very sly (or in similar cases).
Thanks for the proverb, Oxygent. I think the proverb is similar to "Still water runs deep".
Another good expression with чёрт: Как чёрт (от) ладана. ("like an evil spirit from holy incense") -- it's similar to "avoid like the plague" in English.
The masculine noun ладан specifically means "frankincense" (i.e., the dried resin of trees in the genus Boswellia). But in this context you could also translate it a little more loosely as the "holy incense" used in Orthodox and Catholic churches. The preposition от may or may not be necessary, depending on the verb construction in the main sentence. For example:
Он боится труда, как чёрт ладана. He fears work like the devil [fears] the holy incense. (He avoids work like the plague.)
Наша собака убегает от ванну, как чёрт от ладана. Our dog runs away from a bath, like an evil spirit [runs] from frankincense. (Our dog avoids baths like the plague.)
The verb бояться (to fear) takes a genitive object without a preposition -- thus, for parallelism, ладан is in the genitive singular without от in the first sentence.
P.S. I'm not sure what the custom is for the Russian Orthodox church, but the "holy incense" used in Roman Catholic churches is traditionally a mixture of ладан (frankincense) and мирра (myrrh), and not ладан alone. And incidentally, the special incense burner used in churches is called either a "censer" (note the -er spelling!) or a "thurible" in English (according to Wikipedia, the Russian name is кадило).
P.P.S. The noun "plague" is чума -- "the bubonic plague" = бубонная чума.
Nice research -) Actually I don't know what are they burning in their rituals either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
But you gave an example with very interesting russian word which even natives are getting confused with. Ванна/ванная.
a. Ванна - 1. Bathtub
2. Bath
b. Ванная (комната) - Bathroom
But in everyday speech you may use ванна instead of ванная and it won't be a mistake (unless you're on your exam in Russian ;)
You should say "Наша собака убегает от ваннЫ..." (I guess it was a misprint) or "Наша собака убегает из ванной (ванны)..."
This phrase is grammatically incorrect, бы can be used only once in a simple sentence but Russians sometimes break this rule.Quote:
Если бы б меня б не трогали б, я б молчал бы
This is not a simple sentence, and you may use бы twice here - Если бы меня не трогали, я бы молчал.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
This is the quote from Chekhov's humoresque "Язык до Киева доведет" (another proverb) - Это вы разговариваете и мешаете, а не я. Я молчу, брат... И вовсе молчал бы, ежели бы б меня б не трогали б.
He lived in 19th century and the language has changed since those times... a little ;)
And, yes, you're right, you'll find no one nowadays who would say so.
Thanks for the correction, Zocus! The truth is, I know that от requires the genitive, not the accusative! But I first wrote собака избегает ванну, but I wasn't sure if that was correct to use the accusative with избегать, so I changed the verb to убегает and added the от, but forgot to change the case of the object noun.
But anyway, when speaking about washing a dog, is there a better noun to use than ванна? I don't mean that the dog is afraid of the bathtub or the bathroom; I mean that the dog does not like to be washed with soap and water!
Thorbert, thanks for these proverbs. I hope you can check if my understanding of grammar is correct. What case is от ванну? If it's genetive, shouldn't it be от ванной?Quote:
Собака убежала от ванну, как чёрт от ладана
oops.. perhaps it's already answered earlier.
Well, lets decline the words ванна and ванная (комната)Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
Nom - ванна/ванная
Gen - ванны/ванной
Dat - ванне/ ванной
Acc - ванну/ванную
Instr - ванной/ванной
Prep - ванне/ванной
I told you that the word is tricky ;)
You can use the verb 'избегать' (avoid) with 'ванна' in genitive case (собака избегает ваннЫ) or in accusative case (собака избегает ванну). the meaning will be practically the same.
Well, in the case of washing dogs you may translate word to word ;)Quote:
But anyway, when speaking about washing a dog, is there a better noun to use than ванна? I don't mean that the dog is afraid of the bathtub or the bathroom; I mean that the dog does not like to be washed with soap and water!
the dog runs away from a bath - собака убегает из ванны
the dog doesn't like to be washed - собаке не нравится мыться
the dog is afraid of washing - собака боится мыться
But if you construct something like 'My dog is afraid of washing with soap and water in a bathtub which is standing in my bathroom' it sounds really strange both in English and Russian. 'Ванна (принять ванну)' is a perfect word to describe this whole procedure, unless dogs aren't taking bath, they're being washed, I hope ;). Nevertheless you may use the word 'ванна' in the meaning of this procedure or in the meaning of a bathroom or bathtub where the washing is taking place. You did it fine, there's no need to invent a bicycle (anoter Russian proverb). And if you're about to use the proverb just keep in mind how the actions of a dog are corresponding with chorts and incense. You use it to emphasize the first part of the sentence and if chort runs away from a frankincense like a monkey or just afraids of it like a hell (oh... no... it's living there, may be like a heaven ;) ) so should be the dog too.
My dog likes soap ... - Моей собаке нравится мыло, как черту ладан (Absolutely correct phrase. Without the proverb everyone knows that your dog is obsessed with soap, washing etc., but when you add the proverb the meaning reverses cardinally. You even show that the dog actually hates soap)
My dog runs away from water... - Моя собака бежит от воды, как черт от ладана (Everything is fine except the dog is strange, isn't it? :) Never saw the dog with hydrophobia)
My dog hates shampoo... - Моя собака ненавидит шампунь, как черт ладан (Correct, but rarely used)
My dog avoids bathing... - Моя собака избегает ванны (купания, мытья в ванне), как черт ладан (Possible, but I would use another verb)
My dog afraids of washing... - Моя собака боится мыться..., как черт ладана (You may say so, but in this case the verb 'мыться' doesn't correlate with the noun 'ладан'. The phrase is... awkward)
My dog doesn't like washing... - Моей собакe не нравится мыться..., как черту ладан (I know you aren't from Russia ;) )
PS.
Don't hesitate to correct my mistakes in English