Thread: Why is "Много раз я позвонил." wrong?

As far as I understood ( Many thanks for participants' helpful comments! ),

Несколько раз я звонил. =>Correct
Несколько раз я позвонил. => Correct
Много раз я звонил. => Correct
Много раз я позвонил. => Wrong

Why is "Много раз я позвонил." wrong?

I always said that Russian verbs are unexplainable and that you Russian learners are truly heroes.

As for your question, Yuki... Well, the word order in all sentences above is not the best. Much better:
Я звонил несколько раз. / Я несколько раз звонил.
Я позвонил несколько раз. / Я несколько раз позвонил.
Я звонил много раз. / Я много раз звонил.

I really don't know if there is any good explanation why "Я много раз позвонил" doesn't sound good. Here's my version (I'm not sure it's right): maybe it's because "несколько раз" is more concrete, whereas "много раз" is less concrete, and a verb in the perfective aspect is more concrete than in the imperfective.

But, strictly speaking, "Я много раз позвонил" is possible in colloquial speech. For example:
- Я звонил в дверь, но хозяин квартиры мне не открыл. Там что-то случилось!
- А может, он просто не слышал звонка? Ну там, в ванной был, например...
- Да нет, я много раз позвонил!

Originally Posted by Оля

I always said that Russian verbs are unexplainable and that you Russian learners are truly heroes.

I think we're more foolhardy rather than heroes. Lucky for us there is this MasterRussian forum, with Оля and friends there, to help and give us encouragement.

Yuki, I think the reason that your example is mostly considered wrong is because "Я позвонил" is presumably a perfective verb. Perfective verbs as I understand them give rise to one off actions in the past or future. With a time phrase such as много раз, a perfective is impossible because you can't telephone more than one time on one specific occasion... That's not the best explanation I've ever seen; maybe someone can explain more clearly?

This sure is a tough one. Позвонил - ok with несколько, but not ok with много. Both imply a more than one time action.

Originally Posted by Оля

I always said that Russian verbs are unexplainable and that you Russian learners are truly heroes.

As for your question, Yuki... Well, the word order in all sentences above is not the best. Much better:
Я звонил несколько раз. / Я несколько раз звонил.
Я позвонил несколько раз. / Я несколько раз позвонил.
Я звонил много раз. / Я много раз звонил.

I really don't know if there is any good explanation why "Я много раз позвонил" doesn't sound good. Here's my version (I'm not sure it's right): maybe it's because "несколько раз" is more concrete, whereas "много раз" is less concrete, and a verb in the perfective aspect is more concrete than in the imperfective.

But, strictly speaking, "Я много раз позвонил" is possible in colloquial speech. For example:
- Я звонил в дверь, но хозяин квартиры мне не открыл. Там что-то случилось!
- А может, он просто не слышал звонка? Ну там, в ванной был, например...
- Да нет, я много раз позвонил!

Oljga-san, thank you so much for your kind help.
Your conversation examples look like a novel...

Please allow me to propose my version...


Я звонил несколько раз. / Я несколько раз звонил.
In this case I just made a phone call several times and
each time is more or less independent.

Я позвонил несколько раз. / Я несколько раз позвонил.
In this case several times are packed in one box of action ( a matter of feeling from позвонил ).

Я позвонил много раз. / Я много раз позвонил. -->basically wrong
In this case again I want to pack the times into one box but I can not do so because of many times.

Maybe you're right, Yuki.
Много is more abstract than несколько so maybe that's why we can't "pack it into one box".

Originally Posted by Оля

Maybe you're right, Yuki.
Много is more abstract than несколько so maybe that's why we can't "pack it into one box".

Basically, I agree with Yuki and Olya.

However, sometimes "много раз" with a prefective verb ("packed into a single box") is also possible. It depends on time limitations, I think.

I'll give some more examples to explain my thought.

Я читал эту книгу два раза. - Possible. (Say, Я читал эту книгу два раза, потому что она мне очень нравится. - Separate actions)

Я прочитал эту книгу два раза. - Possible. (Say, Я прочитал эту книгу два раза, но так ничего и не понял. - Result is implied, so it's considered to be one combined action)

Я читал эту книгу много раз. - Possible.

Я прочитал эту книгу много раз. - Sounds unnatural if no time limitations are specified.
However,
Я прочитал эту книгу много раз, прежде чем начал работать над переводом. - Possible. Here, all the period of time "before I started working at its translation" is considered as a single event. That is why, now we CAN pack the actions into a single box.

I am not quite sure it's absolutely right, so any objections are welcome

[quote=Боб Уайтман]

Originally Posted by "Оля":1fv6laid

Maybe you're right, Yuki.
Много is more abstract than несколько so maybe that's why we can't "pack it into one box".

--

However, sometimes "много раз" with a prefective verb ("packed into a single box") is also possible. It depends on time limitations, I think.
--

[/quote:1fv6laid]

Bob, thank you very much.

As far as I know, only "позвонить" among perfective verbs does not allow me to pack много раз into a single box.
Are there any such verbs?

Yuki, you ask a really tricky question.

Yes, it seems like "Я позвонил ему много раз, прежде чем он ответил" sounds unnatural. We'd rather say "звонил" in this case.

However, I have never thought about classifying verbs into those which support "packing multiple actions into a single box" and those which do not

I really have no idea. And I am not even sure that "Я позвонил ему много раз, прежде чем он ответил" is really wrong. It's somewhere on the border between unusual expressions (but grammatically possible) and grammatically wrong expressions...

Maybe we can look for the answer in the Internet

Bob, my impression is as follows:

When позвонил is used, a rigid box is created.
Most of the people ( here the people mean native speakers of Russian ) find it difficult to pack many actions into such a box.

As to other perfective verbs, a flexible box which can easily become bigger
is created, so the people can pack many actions into this type of box.

In case of the imperfective verb, no box is created.

Please look into the above impression!!



Yuki