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I don't always understand when to use the first "prefix" of the verbs...
For instance:
(Thank you for doing this)
What is really the difference between these sentences...?Quote:
спасибо что вы это делали
спасибо что вы это сделали
They translate into the same thing in all languages that I know.
What about:
(I am going to Moscow)
What is the difference?Quote:
Я поеду в Москву.
Я еду в Москву.
:unknown:
The difference is like the difference between Perfect and Imperfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_grammar#Verbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperfective_aspect
Thank you for doing thisQuote:
спасибо что вы это делали
Thank you for have done thisQuote:
спасибо что вы это сделали
I will go to MoscowQuote:
Я поеду в Москву.
I am going to MoscowQuote:
Я еду в Москву.
No, we can't say it that way in English. One can say, “Thank you for having done this,” but not “for have done.”Quote:
Thank you for have done this
Johanna, the trick here is that when a Russian uses the imperfect, they are not focusing on the completion or result of the activity. When they use the perfect, they are drawing attention to completion or result. Figuring out when completion/result is in focus in Russian is one of the trickiest things for non-natives to learn.
Wowik, when thanking someone for doing something in English, we most commonly use the phrase "Thank you for doing this/that," even if the context focuses on result. For instance…
Father: “Look, Sweetie, I've bought you a new car.”
Daughter: “Oh, Daddy, thank you for doing that!”
It's grammatically possible for the daughter here to say, “for having done that,” but it wouldn't be nearly as common.
спасибо, что вы это делали: You were doing that. Thank you for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
спасибо, что вы это сделали: You did [have done] that. Thank you for that.
Thanks everybody for the responses.
It's clearer, but still not 100%
Good to hear I am not the only person who is having troubles understanding this.
I checked the grammatical references but I did not fully follow them... My native language doesn't use imperfective at all... I know how to use it in English obviously; but only through exposure...
I suspect this is one of those phenomenons that you can only master through lots of exposure.
In some cases I can determine almost instinctively which verb form to use, but in other cases I make the wrong guess...
I've got a better Russian grammar book than the one I currently own on order but it's taking forever to arrive.
Okay, I'll try to explain it in another way.
1. Listen, John... While I was in hospital during those three months, you helped (you were helping, as we'd say in Russian) my family, you were driving my children to the school every morning, you were buying medicaments for my old parents, and you were lending money to my wife. СПАСИБО, ЧТО ТЫ ЭТО ДЕЛАЛ! (you were doing that; there were several actions, many actions; or the process was long)
2. Listen, John... Yesterday you gave a lift to my wife when she was late for a bus. СПАСИБО, ЧТО ТЫ ЭТО СДЕЛАЛ! (it was just one action; there wasn't actually any "process" in it)
Is it a bit clearer now, Johanna?
The perfective form is not *always* about completion, right? Like узнать (to find out/discover), сказать (to speak), увидеть (to see temporarily, catch sight of), посмотреть (does this have similar feel as увидеть?).
Thanks for the extra example Olya.
Everybody on the forum seems to know all the grammatical terms apart from me! I've long since forgotten it from school and I didn't really need to know this for foreign languages that I studied.
(I will read up on grammatical terms, but I am still waiting for these books to arrive. )
So for this reason a practical example is more helpful to me than grammatical terms.
Would you mind explaining this for me?
"I wasn’t doing anything"
should apparently be
Я ничего не делала.
and not
Я ничего не сделала.
Yes, that's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
I wasn't doing anything = Я ничего не делала.
I wasn't doing anything while I was waiting for you.
I haven't done anything = Я ничего не cделала.
Why are you scolding me? I haven't done anything [bad]!
Actually, to be honest, in real life we can use the first one meaning the second... :oops: Russian language is very unlogical.
Hm... a bit like... ENGLISH!!! :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
totally unlogical language. If you ask me, Esperanto should be the world language, not English because it's so complicated and illogical...
Thanks for explaining it - I get that.. !
Here is another one.
I am beginning to think that this sentence can be either way.Quote:
I was making breakfast / used to make breakfast
should be:
Я сделала завтрак.
For instance if my job was to cook breakfast for lots of people every day, or I am not talking about a specific breakfast -- just the fact that I am the one who makes it....Then maybe the "c" should not be there??
How is this attempt by me??? :unknown:
-Quote:
I often made breakfast ==> Я обычно делала завтрак.
Yesterday I made breakfast ==> Вчера я сделала завтрак.
I was making breakfast ==> Я делал(а) завтрак.
Я сделала завтрак. ==> I have made breakfast.
OKQuote:
I often made breakfast (last year). ==> Я часто делала завтрак (в прошлом году).
Yesterday I made breakfast ==> Вчера я сделала завтрак.
Where the conversation concerns food, you'd better use the verb 'приготовила'.
:yes:
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?text=brea...te=on&stpar2=1Quote:
to make / prepare breakfast — готовить завтрак
So
I often made breakfast ==> Я часто готовлю завтрак.
Yesterday I made breakfast ==> Вчера я приготовила завтрак.
BTW "to warm up" is "разогревать." The perfective form (feminine) will be "разогрела," and the imperfective one is "разогревала."
One of often discussed topics on Russian forums is "Do you get up earlier to make breakfast for your husband?" :D
http://lifeofwomen.2x2forum.com/foru...a-t1860-15.htm
http://otvet.mail.ru/question/28460866/
http://puzyaka.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=688646Quote:
меня все время мучает чувство вины: я просыпаюсь утром, когда он встает, и делаю вид, что сплю, т.к. реально не могу встать....хоть убейте...
а он мне только однажды рассказал про знакомую, которая мужу КАЖДЫЙ день утром в 5:30 готовила кашу.....30 лет!!!!! и сказал, что ему было бы тоже приятно, ведь он встает-то в 7...
Thanks everyone!
The sentence about breakfast was actually from the "Michel Thomas" audio course..
They used "делать" but perhaps they were trying to keep it simple...
However I knew the words "готовить / приготовить" :yahoo: so I will use that instead!
I knew I would be late with that post update. )))
Johanna, I've added one more useful verb. :)
Готовить - глагол несовершенного вида и отвечает на вопрос "Что делать?". Т.е. действие не является совершённым, законченным. Однако не обязательно то, что оно происходит прямо сейчас. Возможно оно происходило или будет происходить.
Я делаю завтрак = I'm making breakfast. or I make breakfast often.
Я готовлю завтрак = I'm preparing breakfast. or I prepare breakfast often.
Я делал завтрак = I made breakfast earlier. or I was making breakfast.
Я готовил завтрак = I prepared breakfast earlier. or I was preparing breakfast.
Я буду делать завтрак = I'll make breakfast. or I'll be making breakfast.
Я буду готовить завтрак = I'll prepare breakfast. or I'll be preparing breakfast.
Приготовить - глагол совершенного вида и отвечает на вопрос "Что сделать?". Т.е. действие сделано, закончено, завершено или оно будет таковым.
Я cделаю завтрак = I'll have made breakfast.
Я приготовлю завтрак = I'll have prepared breakfast.
Я сделал завтрак = I have made breakfast. or I had made breakfast.
Я приготовил завтрак = I have prepared breakfast. or I had prepared breakfast.
I'm new on board and I would ask a similar question... But I guess it's more appropriate to ask it here...
My question is the difference between those two sentences below:
Мужчина прыгает с лестницы
Мальчик спрыгивает со стола
What I understand from those sentences is that they both can be translated as "the man/boy jumps from the ladder". But in the first sentence, the man is "about to jump" (imagine that he leans forward as if he is jumping) and in the second sentence, the boy has already jumped but not on the ground yet (and we can see him in the air :) )
Am I correct or am I "Lost in Translation" :)
You are lost. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffojeff
First
means "A boy jumps from the table"Quote:
Мальчик спрыгивает со стола
It is one of possible meanings. If he "is jumping" or "jumps" depends on context.Quote:
But in the first sentence, the man is "about to jump" (imagine that he leans forward as if he is jumping)
Actually I do not see any difference between "прыгать" and "спрыгивать" in your examples. Both verbs are imperfective. Perfective couples for them are "прыгнуть" and "спрыгнуть" correspondingly. Remember that perfective verbs in Russian have no present tense.
It is important not to confuse terms here. Perfect is a tense in English, set apart from past tense (sometimes called imperfect or preterite in Germanic and Romanic languages) and pluperfect. Russian doesn't have that distinction because it only has one past tense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Russian has verb aspect, which is something Germanic and Romanic languages do not have in the same fashion or even at all. Russian verbs may have an imperfective aspect or a perfective aspect. English progressive vs. simple forms are verb aspect, too, but they are somewhat different. German, for instance, doesn't have any distinction of aspect at all.
The imperfective aspect is used in all three tenses (past, present, future) and refers to an action without regard of its completion. It forms its future with a form of быть - for example, я буду делать.
The perfective aspect is used only in reference to past or future, it cannot refer to the present, as no action can be completely set, from beginning to the end, in the present instant. Therefore, perfective verbs like сделат, if not in past tense form, refer to a complete action which will see completion in the future. The form which is conjugated like a present tense form is actually a future form.
For instance, in Russian you can say (native speakers please correct me if I'm wrong) "вчера я читала книгу" or "вчера я прочитала книгу". The former sentence means that you were reading in a book yesterday, but you didn't finish it. The latter sentence means that you read the book to its end.
As you can see from the explanation, progressive English forms (you were reading) may coincide with imperfective verbs, whereas simple English forms (you read the book) tend to translate to perfective verbs, but that is not always the case. It's not the same thing, not just because the Russian aspects do not exist in present tense.
Furthermore, aspects are not always covered by prefixes. For instance, говорить is imperfective, while сказать is the perfective partner. Sometimes there's a perfective verb first and the imperfective partner is created by a prefix or suffix or another transformation. For example, you probably already know about the verbs of movement which differentiate whether movement has a specific goal or not: идти is 'to go' with a goal, ходить is 'to go' without a goal. Many verbs are derived from these and other verbs of movement, and in that case the perfective aspect is represented by a form based on the verb for movement towards a goal, the imperfective uses the other one: to find = найти (perfective), находить (imperfective).
Grammar books usually list definitions of situations to help you choose which aspect to use in a given context, but I still find that pretty hard and am frequently mistaken. Dictionaries should list apect partners, usually the definition is found under only one of them, unless the other form has additional meanings.
Robin
Thanks so much ALEXX and Zaya, for the examples..
Really helpful for me! I think examples are the best way to learn... What a pity that there is no easy answer...
:rose:
@bitpicker: thanks for the explanation! English isn't my mothertongue and it feels like an irritating "detour" and distraction when learning Russian. I try to stick with Swedish material but it's not easy since I live in the UK. I speak English like a native and I don't normally make grammatical mistakes. But that's because I've had so much exposure, and not because I actually understand English grammar very well....
I've downloaded a bunch of Russian - English grammar books (despite my reluctance to using English in my Russian studies). Unfortunately there is some kind of hold-up with my Swedish Russian grammar books that I ordered from an online retailer. I hold up my hopes that when these books finally arrive all will become clear.. (never use bokus.com, what a bunch of clowns!)
I noticed you're German, or?? Are you using German or English material in your Russian studies? Do you feel that it matters or not?
A small correction:Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
The sentence "вчера я прочитала книгу" would not only mean that you read the book to its end, but that you read it entirely yesterday as well. That is, you started to read it yesterday, and you finished to read it yesterday. Which means that the book was quite short. :)
If you simply read it till the end yesterday, but started to read it some days (weeks/months) before, use "дочитать": Вчера я дочитала книгу.
I use a mixture. My favourite dictionary is the Oxford Russian dictionary which far surpasses any German dictionary I've seen. My other books are German, but for instance when I look up a phrase in the mail.ru doctionaries online I look it up in either the English or the German section, depending on which expression I think will deliver the most exact rendition of what I want to express. And sometimes I use both, to make sure any ambiguities are resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
It doesn't matter much to me whether something is in English or German, I've been using English daily one way or the other for about 25 years now. That doesn't mean my English is on native level, but I suppose it is as good as it can get without actually living in an English-speaking country.
@ Оля: a short book or a fast and enduring reader... ;)
By the way, дочитать is a good example for a perfective verb which looks like it was made from читать, but it in fact has its own imperfective partner, дочитывать.
Robin