Thread: Verb of direction motion+в/на??

хорошо, у меня вопрос:
when you are saying a verb of direction(идти, бежать, лететь, etc...),
and then the preposition в or на...
how do you know which preposition to use?

for example,
идти в магазин vs идти на магазин
which one would be correct, and why?

Category: V - Russian Word of the Day

В (motion)

June 17th, 2009 by Don
The most common word for “to” in Russian is “в” followed by the accusative case. This is tricky for Gringos because “в” followed by prepositional means “at.” Observe the contrast:

Mама в магазине.	“Mom is at the store.”
Mама пошла в магазин.	“Mom has gone to the store.”
Лена занимается в библотеке.	“Lena is studying at the library.”
Лена пошла в библотеку.	“Lena has gone to the library.”

“В” can also indicate motion and be translated as “into”:

Машина въехала в туннель.	The car drove into the tunnel.
Учительница вошла в комнату.	The teacher walked into the room.

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В (location)

June 15th, 2009 by Don
The most common word for “at” in Russian is в followed by the prepositional case:

— Где мама? — Она в магазине.	“Where's Mom?” “She is at the store.”
— Где Лена? — Она занимается в библотеке.	“Where is Lena?” “She is studying at the library.”
Дети любят играть в парке.	Children love to play at the park
Давай встретимся в бассейне.	Let's meet at the pool.

But в can often be translated as “in”:

Молоко в холодильнике.	The milk is in the refrigerator.
— В чём живёт улитка? — В ракушке.	“What does a snail live in?” “In its shell.”
Летучие мыши спят днём в пещерах.	Bats sleep in caves during the day.
Почему в моём пупочке столько пуха?	Why is there so much fuzz in my bellybutton?

If you are an English speaker, your intuition will be a good guide as to when to translate в as in and when as at. Pity the poor Russian speaker, though, who has to figure out the difference in English.
В can also be used to indicate emotional states:

Он это сказал в гневе. Не принимай его слова всерьёз.	He said that in anger. Don't take his words seriously.
Я весь день бегал в панике, то туда, то сюда.	I ran around here and there all day long in a panic.
Я был в полном шоке, когда меня уволили.	I was in complete shock when they fired me.
Когда загораю на пляже, я чувствую себя в полном блаженстве.	When I'm soaking up the sun on the beach, I am in complete bliss.

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http://masterrussian.net/search.php?searchid=251036

It is the same when you use these prepositions for locations.
"The rule" is kind of vague and has lots of exceptions, but in general it is as follows:
- "в" for "closed" spaces like buildings. "Вокзал" is, surprisingly, used with "на"
- "на" for "open" spaces like a field or crossroads. "Аэропорт" is, surprisingly, used with "в", and so is "район" ("district" or "area")
- в for cities, countries, villages and other settlements. Exceptions: in Russian it is still more preferable to say "на Украине" (has lots to do with the etymology)
- на for rivers, islands. Yup, Япония is used with "в" and Хоккайдо with "на".
- the main tweak: use "НА" when referring to an abstract event rather than a physical space :"на концерт", "на занятия", "на работу". However, "в" is used for "кино" or "театр"- as I have already said, the rule only works on average for ambiguous cases

- ... and use "к" with dative when going to a person ("I'm off to Mary's place").


Now, for places you use it like that:
у Маши
в школе
на концерте

For directions (to corresponding objects) you automatically have:
к Маше
в школу
на концерт

And when going back:
от Маши ("away from Masha")
из школы ("out of the school")
с концерта ("from the concert")

I.e. you need to only know one of these cases. For example, if you are sure you use "из магазина" for "from the store", then you know how to say "to the store" and "at the store".

На (часть пятая)

February 16th, 2010 by Don

Seven-year old Mariana walked into the living room where her father, Alyosha, and I were sitting. She placed an ashtray in front of us and said «Нате». I looked at the two of them in confusion and Alyosha said:

Она думала, что вы тоже будете курить.

She thought that you were going to smoke, too.

Alyosha had totally misunderstood the source of my confusion. He thought I was surprised that she thought I would smoke, but really I was confused because I didn't have the foggiest idea of what «нате» meant. It was my first trip to Russia, having had five years of college Russian. It would not have surprised me for someone to say, “Oh, you don't know the difference between ОВИР and УВИР is? The latter is the department where you process the special form that gives foreigners the right to use a public toilet, and the former is the office where that toilet is located. Be sure to bring some small gift to УВИР or they won't put the right stamp on the form, and when you go to ОВИР, be sure to put the seat down when you are done or the babushka who monitors the sinks will yell at you.” That wouldn't have surprised me at all. But to have a little nine-year old Russian girl flummox me with two syllables was downright demoralizing.
It turns out that «на» and «нате» mean “Here you go.” It's used when you are handing something to someone. «На» is used when you are talking with someone in ты form, and «нате» is used when speaking to someone in вы form. That's right. The Russkis have added -те to something that's not a verb. Makes me want to study an easier language, like Pashto or Thai...
«На» and «нате» are very informal words. You will hear them used in homes and among friends. Don't use them in formal circumstances. I once flashed my hotel pass to a doorman in Russia and said «на». He had annoyed me, and my use of «на» really ticked him off. He caused me continual grief for the rest of my stay at that hotel. (It really was rude of me, and I should not have done it. Just because someone is a jerk to you does not mean you should be a jerk to him.)
And here are a couple examples of how it can be used:

— Мам, передай соль. — На.	“Mom, pass the salt.” “Here you go.”
Ребята, у меня для вас сюрприз. Я принесла конфеты. Нате, ешьте на здоровье!	Kids, I have a surprise for you. I brought some candy. Here you go. Enjoy!

Posted in Na, Te | 4 comments »


На (часть четвёртая)

November 26th, 2009 by Don
The next use of the word на with the accusative case is equivalent to the English word “by” in contexts where you are comparing one thing to another.

Моему брату сорок три года, а мне сорок восемь лет. Значит, я старше его на пять лет.	My brother is 43 years old. I'm 48. That means I'm older than him by five years. ¹
Ростом я сто восемьдесят три сантиметра. Мой брат сто семьдесят восемь сантиметров. То есть, я выше его на пять сантиметров.	I'm 183 centimeters tall. My brother is 178 centimeters. That is, I'm taller than him by 5 centimeters.
Новгород находится в четырёхстах девяноста километрах от Москвы, а Санкт-Петербург на сто сорок километров дальше.	Novgorod is 490 kilometers from Moscow, and St. Petersburg is 140 kilometers farther.
У Бригама Янга было пятьдесят пять жён, а у Джозефа Смита было лишь сорок четыре. Значит, у Смита было на одиннадцать жён меньше, чем у Янга.	Brigham Young had fifty-five wives, whereas Joseph Smith had only forty-four. That means that Smith had eleven wives less than Young. ²

That last example brings us to an interesting point. When you are counting differences in numbers of people, you get the following quirk with the numbers two, three, and four:

Детей у Смирновых пятеро, а у Ивановых только трое. Значит, у Ивановых на два ребёнка меньше, чем у Смирновых.

There are five children in the Smirnovs' family, but there are only three in the Ivanovs'. That means the Ivanovs have two kids less in their family than the Smirnovs.

If this were the true accusative after на in this meaning, we would expect «на двух человек» or «на двоих людей», not «на два человека». Other examples:

Ежеминутно в США прибывает на два человека больше, чем эмигрирует. (source)	Every minute two more people arrive in the US than emigrate from it.
Нижегородцев-миллиардеров в 2008 году стало на три человека меньше. (source)	In 2008 there were three billionaires less in Nizhni Novgorod [than in the previous year].
Небоевые потери российской армии в июне 2009г. составили 23 человека, что на четыре человека меньше, чем в мае с.г. (source)	Russian Army noncombat losses in June 2009 were 23, which is four people less than in May of this year.

This shows us one of two things: either a) the accusative case is not entirely stable in modern Russian, or b) на in this meaning actually uses a separate case that is minimally distinct from the accusative. I argued for the latter in my doctoral dissertation, although the former is probably true as well.

---

¹ Yes, I know that the “correct” way to say it is “I'm older than he,” but any normal American is going to say “I'm older than him.” It's time for the pedants to catch up to the living language: “than” has become a preposition in such contexts.
² Yes, I know that the “correct” way to say it is “eleven wives fewer,” but normal people don't talk that way. It's time for the pedants to catch up to the living language: “less” is perfectly normal these days when dealing with count nouns.

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На (часть третья)

November 20th, 2009 by Don
The next use of the word на with the accusative case is equivalent to the English word “for” in some contexts. For instance, when you are talking about what you ate for a particular meal:

На завтрак я ел овсяную кашу.	I ate oatmeаl for breakfast.
На обед мы ели печень.	For lunch we ate liver.
— На свадьбе что будет на закуску? — Ну, бутерброды с икрой, солёные огурцы, кабачковая икра, бутерброды с колбасой, сало, маринованные грибы, салат столичный, грибная икра, холодец, шпроты, бутерброды с сыром, винегрет, тёртая морковь, и квашенная капуста. — Гм. Мало. Хочешь, я тебе помогу?	“What appetizers will there be at the wedding?” “Well, caviar canapés, pickles, squash pâté, sausage canapés, fatback, marinated mushrooms, Capital salad, mushroom pâté, aspic, sardines, cheese canapés, beet salad, shredded carrot salad, and sauerkraut.” “Hm. That's not very much. Want me to help you?”

When you put aside money for a particular purpose, на plus accusative also works:

Я сберёг шестьсот рублей на покупку породистой кошки.	I have saved up 600 rubles for the purchase of a pedigreed cat.
Вот тебе деньги на цветы. Купи маме что-нибудь красивое.	Here's some money for flowers. Buy Mama some nice ones.
Какой ты плохой отец! Не кормишь своих детей, но у тебя всегдя есть деньги на водку.	What a bad father you are! You don't feed your own children, but you always have money for vodka.
Каждый день я откладываю мелочь на новое платье	Every day I put aside some change for a new dress.

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На (часть вторая)

November 16th, 2009 by Don
The second meaning of the preposition на is “on” in the sense of “onto.” In this meaning it is complemented by the accusative case.

Поставь вазу на подоконник.	Put the vase on the windowsill.
Грузовик въехал на пристань, грузчики начали выгружать его.	The truck drove onto the dock, and the stevedores began to unload it.
Кошка запрыгнула на стол и опрокинула чайник на пол.	The cat jumped up on the table and knocked the teapot onto the floor.
Серёга, я привязал пару верёвок к папиной машине. Мы будем держаться за верёвки, запрыгнем на скейтборды, a мой брат будет нас тянуть за собой по двору!	Sergei, I attached a couple of ropes to Dad's car. We'll hold onto the ropes and hop on our skateboards, and my brother will pull us all over the neighborhood!¹

¹ Двор and neighborhood are not really the same thing, but for this example it should work.

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Category: Na


На (часть первая)

November 9th, 2009 by Don
The first meaning of the preposition на is “on.” In this meaning it is complemented by the prepositional case.

Книга на столе.	The book is on the table.
Я забыл свой бумажник на полке.	I left my wallet on the shelf.
Вова спокойно наблюдал, как комар на его руке пил его кровь. Он удивился, что не больно.	Vladimir quietly observed the mosquito on his hand drink his blood. He was surprised that it didn't hurt.
На крыше больницы стоит вертолёт, готовый к спасению жертв несчастных случаев.	On the roof of the hospital there is a helicopter ready to rescue accident victims.

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На (motion)

June 18th, 2009 by Don
The second-most common word for “to” in Russian is “на” followed by the accusative case. This is potentially confusing because “на” followed by the prepositional case often means “at.” Observe the contrast:

Мама на работе?	Is Mom at work?
Мама поехала на работу.	Mom has gone to work.
На почте покупаем марки и принимаем факсы.	We buy stamps and receive faxes at the post office.
Почтальон поехал на почту.	The postman has gone to the post office.

“На” followed by accusative can also be translated as “onto”:

Кошка прыгнула на стол.	The cat jumped onto the table.
Мой брат влез на крышу.	My brother climbed onto the roof.

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На (location)

June 16th, 2009 by Don
Although the most common word for “at” in Russian is «в» followed by the prepositional case, there is a set of very common nouns that use «на» followed by the prepositional case. Among the most common phrases are:

Мама на работе?	Is Mom at work?
Вчера мы были на концерте Земфиры.	Last night we were at a Zemfira concert
На почте покупаем марки и принимаем факсы.	We buy stamps and receive faxes at the post office.
Сегодня на собрании было очень скучно.	It was really boring at the meeting today.

Learning the на words is not all that difficult: by my count there are fewer than a hundred. You can take a look at my most recent list here.
На can also be translated as “on”:

За ночь у меня на лице появился огромный прыщик.	Overnight an enormous pimple appeared on my face.
На верхнем этаже того здания находится частный клуб, члены которого тайно управляют всей Америкой.	On the top floor of that building there is a private club, whose members secretly control all of America.
На днях на горе Леммон я увидел двух пум.	A few days ago I saw two pumas on Mount Lemmon.
Интересно, есть ли на Марсе жизнь?	I wonder if there is life on Mars?

Originally Posted by casper trumpet

хорошо, у меня вопрос:
when you are saying a verb of direction(идти, бежать, лететь, etc...),
and then the preposition в or на...
how do you know which preposition to use?

for example,
идти в магазин vs идти на магазин
which one would be correct, and why?

When we speak, we don't think of prepositions, we always use the correct one automatically.
There is a correspondence:
Location у + gen. Direction к + dat. Direction from от + gen.
в + prep. в + acc. из + gen.
на + prep. на + acc. с + gen.