Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
пропустил бы такую фразу не подумав, попадись она так, в разговоре.
And while we`re at it what exactly is that? It's used all the time, in the literature at least, but... Why imperative with 3rd person to express a condition? (or rarely, a suddenness of an action) I vaguely recall that this is a remnant of an old verb tense, but I'm not really sure.
А случись что, кто отвечать будет? Ты, что ли?
А он возьми, да и заяви, - "Отнюдь, одиннадцать частей у быка"!
Попадись мне такой в тёмном переулке, я бы со страху помер...
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:
Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и не бывает.
I don't see anything unusual in this example. :unknown:
+1
"Хотя и" + "так не бывает" = "хотя так и не бывает"
Если склеить без перестановки, получится, что "хотя и" относится к "так", а это другой смысл.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
And while we`re at it what exactly is that? It's used all the time, in the literature at least, but... Why imperative with 3rd person to express a condition? (or rarely, a suddenness of an action) I vaguely recall that this is a remnant of an old verb tense, but I'm not really sure.
А начиналось все с "Using ли in question sentences?" :)
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Это очень интересно.
У меня еще один вопрос. Какая разница между этими двумя словами/фразами:
никогда
так и не + глагол в прошедшем времени.
Спацибо!
(И я, вероятно, не пойму ответы на русском языке по етой теме!)
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiannewb
Это очень интересно.
У меня еще один вопрос. Какая разница между этими двумя словами/фразами:
никогда
так и не + глагол в прошедшем времени.
Спасибо!
(И я, вероятно, не пойму ответы на русском языке в этой теме!)
The difference is quite big, actually. Hmm, it doesn't seem that big only if you translate them into English...
никогда is just "never"
так и не... is a construction which indicates that an action never happened, although it was about to happen. For example, "He wanted to make her a declaration of love, but, however, he never did": Он хотел признаться ей в любви, но так и не признался.
If you say "Он никогда не признавался (признался doesn't fit here) ей в любви", it would only mean the fact that there never was a declaration. It doesn't mean he was going to. It doesn't even mean that he ever loved her. Just there was no declaration, that's all.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiannewb
Это очень интересно.
У меня еще один вопрос. Какая разница между этими двумя словами/фразами:
никогда
так и не + глагол в прошедшем времени.
Спацибо!
(И я, вероятно, не пойму ответы на русском языке по етой теме!)
Those phrases can even be used together: Он пообещал, но так никогда и не сделал. He promised, still never did it.
Sorry for Russian offtopic in your thread. :( Here starting from the answer we often go to offtopic conversations with each other.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Those phrases can even be used together: Он пообещал, но так никогда и не сделал.
As Оля have said, it sounds like a translation from English.
Он никогда этого не делал (imperfective) - He never did it before
Он так этого и не сделал (perfective) - He had to do it, bit never did it
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
[quote=it-ogo] Quote:
Originally Posted by "Оля":9apdd329
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:
Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и не бывает.
I don't see anything unusual in this example. :unknown:
+1
"Хотя и" + "так не бывает" = "хотя так и не бывает"
[/quote:9apdd329]
Aha. How exactly "никогда" got there, if you yourself avoided it in your own re-phrasing? Exactly Bulgakov's phrase works in exactly the context it was used in, no doubt, but why does it sound natural?
And yes, Оля's explanation of difference between the "так и не" and "никогда" is right on.
It wouldn't work with other tense/aspect combinations though: "так не бывает", "так и не бывает", "так никогда не бывает"... It's something else. I can't explain the difference well, but it exists.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
Exactly Bulgakov's phrase works in exactly the context it was used in, no doubt, but why does it sound natural?
I keep wondering what strange do you find in that phrase. :unknown:
Type "никогда и не бывает" in Google and you'll see a lot of examples which all sound absolutely natural.
By the way, it's another construction. (If that's what confuses you here). "Он так и не позвонил ей" and "Так и не бывает никогда" are different constructions and have nothing to do with each other.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
Exactly Bulgakov's phrase works in exactly the context it was used in, no doubt, but why does it sound natural?
I keep wondering what strange do you find in that phrase. :unknown:
Mainly, that in context it seems a perfectly OK phrase, useful in other similar contexts, but exactly this one "так никогда и не бывает" was used by just a handful of people on the whole Net, as if people are avoiding it and preferring paraphrases. There ought to be orders of magnitude more uses. It's even rarer than "центральноамериканский" ! This might be some weird artifact of the way search engines work, of course... (ADD: At first I indeed thought that it's similar to "так никогда и не решил " but it is not, you're right. And that makes this aversion even more weird.)
Anyway, this is off-topic here.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
It's even rarer than "центральноамериканский" !
For "центральноамериканский" Google gives me 23800 results, and for "никогда и не бывает" it gives me 2 020 000 results.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
It's even rarer than "центральноамериканский" !
For "центральноамериканский" Google gives me 23800 results, and for "никогда и не бывает" it gives me 2 020 000 results.
"так никогда и не бывает" Again, i mean the entire phrase. Just "никогда и не быавает" is indeed that common.
"так никогда и не бывает" is different. Google claims 264 000 hits, but actually displays circa 10 results that aren't quotes from Bulgakov. If one uses more advanced err... googlemancy, with searches like ["так никогда и не бывает" баскетбол] or ["так никогда и не бывает" самолёт] it's still 10 times less common than "так никогда не бывает" sometimes much worse than that.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
"так никогда и не бывает" Again, i mean the entire phrase. Just "никогда и не быавает" is indeed that common.
I don't see any difference between так никогда и не бывает and
такого никогда и не бывает
никогда и не бывает, чтобы...
никогда и не бывает так[, чтобы...]
никогда и не бывает такого[, чтобы...]
такого и не бывает никогда
and so on.
All these are the same construction. You can't put them all in Google as a single construction, but that's what they are. There is nothing unusual or unnatural about them. I don't understand why you are so crazy about that particular phrase.
Re: Using ли in question sentences?
I'm not really. It's just mild surprise and interest. If I were "crazy" about it, I would have already done something more involved than a few dozens of Google searches. :)