Using ли in question sentences?

Hi All,

First post here. I'm an avid Russian student of lower intermediate level. For homework, we have some translations to do, which made me think of some questions.

I know that you use ли in yes/no questions, translated as whether/if in English. For example, Есть ли у нево деньги?

What about "Did he want to go home? He did not know if he wanted to go home. He decided whether or not he wanted to go home." Would it be "Хотел ли он идти домой? Он не знал хотел ли идти домой. Он решил идти ли домой или нет." Or am I imagining that you could use ли in these sentences when you really can't?

Thanks so much!

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Hi All,

First post here. I'm an avid Russian student of lower intermediate level. For homework, we have some translations to do, which made me think of some questions.

I know that you use ли in yes/no questions, translated as whether/if in English. For example, Есть ли у него деньги?

What about "Did he want to go home? He did not know if he wanted to go home. He decided whether or not he wanted to go home." Would it be "Хотел ли он идти домой? Он не знал хотел ли он идти домой. [s:tad2qivq]Он решил идти ли домой или нет[/s:tad2qivq]." Or am I imagining that you could use ли in these sentences when you really can't?

Thanks so much!

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Welcome!

The first ones are OK, save for typos.

The last one is tricky. You should not use "ли" or "или нет" in affirmative sentences EDIT: of this type, where something POSITIVELY HAPPENED, no "-ings", "maybes", etc. See the next post on when it might be OK. I'm sorry. But you have to use "ли" and may use "или нет" in a negative sentence of this type.
Он решил, что пойдёт домой. He decided to go home.
Он не решил идти ли ему домой. He didn't decide[s:tad2qivq]d[/s:tad2qivq] if he would go home.
Идти ему домой или нет, он так и не решил. He hadn't decided whether or not he would go home.
Идти ему домой или нет, он так никогда и не решил. He never decided whether or not he would go home.
Он ещё не решил идти ли ему домой. He hadn't (ADD: or haven't) decided whether or not he would go home yet.


What you may use/encounter in an affirmative is subjunctive (with "бы") and maybe a few extra words for emphasis.
These all would mean "weaker" decision than straight affirmative. "He decided, that it would be nice to go home..." Do you notice the difference?

WARNING: I'm not sure if your "whether or not" in an affirmative sentence means the same thing, not even sure if it's grammatical English, in fact I never saw this one before :-(. I'm an ignorant lout, I know.

Он решил, что неплохо бы (ему) (было) пойти домой.
Something like that. The words "ему" and "было" may be dropped or added depending on... Well, voices in my head. I don't know. Sometimes they sound OK, sometimes they don't. But:
Он решил, что было бы неплохо пойти домой.In these you can't drop or add anything, or so little voices tell me. No better explaination than that, sorry.
Он решил, что хорошо бы (ему) пойти домой.


Word and clause order may be slightly different, this one is what I believe is typical of written narratives, but II may or may not be right. And my punctuation might be dodgy.

Ok. Googled it up. No conclusion. It seems to be used mostly in dependent clauses, like "<do smth> while he decided(=had been deciding?) whether or not" or for emphasis/irony, - "he "decided" whether or not" (meaning he didn't.) In the former case I believe the translation would be "<что-то делать> пока он решал пойти ли ему домой (или нет)" ( He had not positively decided, he had been deciding...) The latter case is high stylistics.

Thanks, this is really helpful.

This might be a really stupid question, but why is the ему there? You couldn't just say:
...пока он решал пойти ли домой (или нет).

What's the necessity of the dative case here?

Also, does the imperfective aspect change anything here? For example, could you say Он долго решал пойти ли домой?

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Thanks, this is really helpful.

This might be a really stupid question, but why is the ему there? You couldn't just say:
...пока он решал пойти ли домой (или нет).

What's the necessity of the dative case here?

Also, does the imperfective aspect change anything here? For example, could you say Он долго решал пойти ли домой?

Thanks again.

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As for the first point I don't really know. That's just how things are said. But my theory is that there's an implied modal verb hidden somewhere in there. But these are pseudogrammatical ramblings of an insomniac.

As for the second one, yes, sorry, it changes everything. As long as the action didn't positively happen, you may use "ли".

Or another example: http://capitalnews9.com/capital-region- ... governor-/
"Mayor Rudy Giuliani's camp is denying reports that he's decided whether or not he'll challenge Governor David Paterson in 2010. "
(Giuliani did not really decide anything. )
[s:2073kxvc]Штат[/s:2073kxvc]Лагерь мэра Руди Джуиллиани (sp?) опровергает заявления о том, что он решил будет ли он баллотироваться в 2010 г. против губернатора Паттерсона.

Had it been: "He's decided whether or not he'll challenge..." (He did decide, but we're not told what exactly.) it would be
Он решил будет ли он баллотироваться против губернатора...
In these two perfective+future is used, to show that situation either never really happened or we don't know if it did, but someone said so.

Had it been: "So, that's how one might have decided whether or not he would date her..." (a hypothetical person, no real decisions are made)
Вот так и решают (могут решать), встречаться ли с ней или нет" (notice imperfective AND impersonal construction with dropped pronoun.)

In other words, there isn't a single way to handle "whether or not" in these sentences. It all heavily depends on why it was used in the first place.

Wow, thanks so much, this is great!

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Wow, thanks so much, this is great!

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Thanks to you for something interesting and off the beaten track. :) But you really do want second opinions on those. I may misread the situation completly. Being a fluent speaker in both languages doesn't mean one has grammatical knowledge of a real pro, :( and there are some on the forum.

P.S. I feel as if Оля and others are watching me over my shoulder and saying "You, moron, how could you..." Very motivating.

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Thanks, this is really helpful.

This might be a really stupid question, but why is the ему there? You couldn't just say:
...пока он решал пойти ли домой (или нет).

What's the necessity of the dative case here?

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Thought about it some more... . "...пока он решал пойти ли домой" is OK in itself, but it would mean slightly different thing, - as if it wasn't just he who goes home or as if his decision process was more "abstract" in some sense. So in most cases speakers (or, rather, this speaker) avoid ambiguity and add a singular or plural pronoun. Why it is where it is and why dative of all six cases, - still no idea.

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

This might be a really stupid question, but why is the ему there? You couldn't just say:...пока он решал пойти ли домой (или нет).What's the necessity of the dative case here?

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"Ему" is not necessary here, but you can say for example"...пока он решал, пойти ли им домой" (lineal: ...while he was deciding if they would go home), if he was in charge to decide for all of them. :)

As for dative, it is the usual way to say many things... You can think about it like пойти is a task, given(dative) to him (by himself).
Всем стоять! - Stand still, everybody! literally: To stand is for everibody.
пойти ли ему... - literally: if to go is for him

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Originally Posted by ac220

P.S. I feel as if Оля and others are watching me over my shoulder and saying "You, moron, how could you..." Very motivating.

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Big Sister is watching you!

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Originally Posted by ac220

Он решил, что пойдёт домой. He decided to go home.
Он не решил идти ли ему домой. He didn't decided if he would go home.

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In the first sentence, isn't the situaion, as defined by the perfective verbs, such that he is where he is now, but will now go home? The English sentence is more ambiguous, it could be talking about a completely past event, but пойдёт implies to me that he is going to go home now - the decision has just taken place.

The second English sentence is not grammatically correct (didn't decided). If the Russian sentence applies to a situation fully in the past, it would be like this: (When I met him on the party last week) he hadn't decided (yet) whether to go home. I suppose it could also be applied to someone who is at a party now and has not decided so far whether he should go: he hasn't decided (yet) whether to go home. Or does решил imply otherwise?

'Whether to go home' can be replaced by 'whether / if he should go home' in both variants, but don't use 'if' and 'would' in the same clause.

Alternatively the sentence could also mean 'he failed to decide / didn't decide...' as in 'someone else decided for him'. Oh my, the mind boggles...

Robin

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

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Originally Posted by ac220

Он решил, что пойдёт домой. He decided to go home.
Он не решил идти ли ему домой. He didn't decided if he would go home.

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In the first sentence, isn't the situaion, as defined by the perfective verbs, such that he is where he is now, but will now go home? The English sentence is more ambiguous, it could be talking about a completely past event, but пойдёт implies to me that he is going to go home now - the decision has just taken place.

The second English sentence is not grammatically correct (didn't decided). If the Russian sentence applies to a situation fully in the past, it would be like this: (When I met him on the party last week) he hadn't decided (yet) whether to go home. I suppose it could also be applied to someone who is at a party now and has not decided so far whether he should go: he hasn't decided (yet) whether to go home. Or does решил imply otherwise?

'Whether to go home' can be replaced by 'whether / if he should go home' in both variants, but don't use 'if' and 'would' in the same clause.

Alternatively the sentence could also mean 'he failed to decide / didn't decide...' as in 'someone else decided for him'. Oh my, the mind boggles...

Robin

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1st: Russian has just two tenses for perfective, and you never use <past>+<past> in situations of this sort. So it's as ambiguous out of context as the English equivalent. It might be both past events, or it might not.

2nd: oops, sorry. I claim copy-paste error and insomnia. I really meant "He didn't decide". But in Russian either "didn't decide" or "haven't decided" or "hadn't decided" will be "не решил," you need context. "Он не решает" or "не решал" would mean "he doesn't (didn't even try to) decide," or has/had no ability to decide, or otherwise plays/played no role in that decision.

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Would it be "Хотел ли он идти домой? Он не знал, хочет ли он идти домой. Он решал, хочет ли он идти домой(or: хочет [s:22y6rkfs]ли[/s:22y6rkfs] он идти домой или нет) .

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"Ли" + "или" in a single sentence is extra. You should use either one or another.
For example:
1. Я не знаю, хочу ли я есть. (I don't know if I'm hungry)
2. Я не знаю, хочу я есть или нет. (I don't know if I'm hungry or not).

Also, you necessarily need a comma before the "ли"/"или" part.

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Originally Posted by ac220

Он не решил, идти ли ему домой.
Идти ему домой или нет, он так и не решил.
Идти ему домой или нет, он так никогда и не решил.
Он ещё не решил, идти ли ему домой.

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"Никогда" in "Идти ему домой или нет, он так никогда и не решил" looks absolutely extra to me and makes the sentence unnatural (like a translation from English). "Так и не + [verb in the past tense]" is perfectly enough to express the idea in Russian.

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

In the first sentence, isn't the situaion, as defined by the perfective verbs, such that he is where he is now, but will now go home? The English sentence is more ambiguous, it could be talking about a completely past event, but пойдёт implies to me that he is going to go home now - the decision has just taken place.

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I'm pretty sure it can mean both, depending on the context. There is no agreement of tenses in Russian.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

There is no agreement of tenses in Russian.

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Indeed. For example, you can say "She felt she was hungry" in two ways in Russian:

1. Ей казалось, что она была голодна.
2. Ей казалось, что она _ голодна.

The last one sounds more natural. By the way, they both sound a bit bookish/outdated because of the "была голодна" construction. In Russian, we usually say "I want to eat", not "I am hungry", although both are possible. So, in modern colloquial language, one would say:

3. Ей казалось, что она хочет есть. (Literally: "She felt that she wants to eat").

And in the case of this construction ("want to eat"), the variant

4. Ей казалось, что она хотела есть ("She felt that she wanted to eat"))

sounds quite unnatural, even.

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Would it be "Хотел ли он идти домой? Он не знал, хочет ли он идти домой. Он решал, хочет ли он идти домой(or: хочет [s:2r5234e9]ли[/s:2r5234e9] он идти домой или нет) .

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"Ли" + "или" in a single sentence is extra. You should use either one or another.
For example:
1. Я не знаю, хочу ли я есть. (I don't know if I'm hungry)
2. Я не знаю, хочу я есть или нет. (I don't know if I'm hungry or not).

Also, you necessarily need a comma before the "ли"/"или" part.

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Yes, using both is pointless. What it happens nonetheless (even in one of my own examples) is the same kind of error as "Он сейчас ничего сейчас не делает", - the speaker forgot he had said that already. (Тьху, теперь везде глюки с согласованием времён мерещатся...)

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by ac220

Он не решил, идти ли ему домой.
Идти ему домой или нет, он так и не решил.
Идти ему домой или нет, он так никогда и не решил.
Он ещё не решил, идти ли ему домой.

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"Никогда" in "Идти ему домой или нет, он так никогда и не решил" looks absolutely extra to me and makes the sentence unnatural (like a translation from English). "Так и не + [verb in the past tense]" is perfectly enough to express the idea in Russian.

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Well, it might be justifiable. It was even once used by Kuprin: "Во весь этот вечер и много дней спустя, а пожалуй, во всю свою жизнь он спрашивал себя по чести и совести: да или нет? Но так никогда и не разрешил этого вопроса." (http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/kuprin2/21.html) who obviously wasn't translating from English. But in general you're right, - no XIX century novelist (or any other paragon of style) would use that more than once in his entire life, if that. ADD: A more justifiable way to use such a duplication is: "Он так никогда и не решит." meaning that decision not just wasn't made, but will not ever be made.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

There is no agreement of tenses in Russian.

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Well, it depends. There are patterns one follows, but with most of the role tenses play in English (or French) taken by intrinsic verb aspect and idiomatic usage in Russian, they are quite Byzantine, as this topic shows. :wacko: And in that particular case you're right, it's both.

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Originally Posted by ac220

Well, it might be justifiable. It was even once used by Kuprin: "Во весь этот вечер и много дней спустя, а пожалуй, во всю свою жизнь он спрашивал себя по чести и совести: да или нет? Но так никогда и не разрешил этого вопроса."

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Well, of course "так никогда и не решил" is possible of itself. But Kuprin writes "за всю жизнь" (during the whole life). It was a serios difficult question one can think about for many years. But you can't be encompassed with doubts during all your life about the question "Should I go home now or not?" :D

By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:

Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и
не бывает. Не знал ее муж, не знали знакомые.
/Булкгаков, "Мастер и Маргарита"/

Yes, you could say that, and yes "и" here isn't pointless. It shows futility of attempts to define "good style in general". "Так не бывает" is normal way to express this, but it's just too usual an expression for this particular dialog.

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Originally Posted by ac220

By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:

Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и не бывает.

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I don't see anything unusual in this example. :unknown:

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by ac220

By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:

Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и не бывает.

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I don't see anything unusual in this example. :unknown:

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Попробуй поискать

"так никогда и не бывает" -Булгаков -Мастер

в Яндексе и Гугле. Я сам ужасно удивился. И да, признаюь, пропустил бы такую фразу не подумав, попадись она так, в разговоре.

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Originally Posted by ac220

пропустил бы такую фразу не подумав, попадись она так, в разговоре.

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And while we`re at it what exactly is that? It's used all the time, in the literature at least, but... Why imperative with 3rd person to express a condition? (or rarely, a suddenness of an action) I vaguely recall that this is a remnant of an old verb tense, but I'm not really sure.

А случись что, кто отвечать будет? Ты, что ли?
А он возьми, да и заяви, - "Отнюдь, одиннадцать частей у быка"!
Попадись мне такой в тёмном переулке, я бы со страху помер...

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by ac220

By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:

Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и не бывает.

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I don't see anything unusual in this example. :unknown:

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+1
"Хотя и" + "так не бывает" = "хотя так и не бывает"

Если склеить без перестановки, получится, что "хотя и" относится к "так", а это другой смысл.

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Originally Posted by ac220

And while we`re at it what exactly is that? It's used all the time, in the literature at least, but... Why imperative with 3rd person to express a condition? (or rarely, a suddenness of an action) I vaguely recall that this is a remnant of an old verb tense, but I'm not really sure.

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А начиналось все с "Using ли in question sentences?" :)

Это очень интересно.

У меня еще один вопрос. Какая разница между этими двумя словами/фразами:

никогда
так и не + глагол в прошедшем времени.

Спацибо!

(И я, вероятно, не пойму ответы на русском языке по етой теме!)

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Это очень интересно.

У меня еще один вопрос. Какая разница между этими двумя словами/фразами:

никогда
так и не + глагол в прошедшем времени.

Спасибо!

(И я, вероятно, не пойму ответы на русском языке в этой теме!)

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The difference is quite big, actually. Hmm, it doesn't seem that big only if you translate them into English...
никогда is just "never"
так и не... is a construction which indicates that an action never happened, although it was about to happen. For example, "He wanted to make her a declaration of love, but, however, he never did": Он хотел признаться ей в любви, но так и не признался.
If you say "Он никогда не признавался (признался doesn't fit here) ей в любви", it would only mean the fact that there never was a declaration. It doesn't mean he was going to. It doesn't even mean that he ever loved her. Just there was no declaration, that's all.

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Originally Posted by russiannewb

Это очень интересно.

У меня еще один вопрос. Какая разница между этими двумя словами/фразами:

никогда
так и не + глагол в прошедшем времени.

Спацибо!

(И я, вероятно, не пойму ответы на русском языке по етой теме!)

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Those phrases can even be used together: Он пообещал, но так никогда и не сделал. He promised, still never did it.

Sorry for Russian offtopic in your thread. :( Here starting from the answer we often go to offtopic conversations with each other.

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

Those phrases can even be used together: Он пообещал, но так никогда и не сделал.

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As Оля have said, it sounds like a translation from English.

Он никогда этого не делал (imperfective) - He never did it before
Он так этого и не сделал (perfective) - He had to do it, bit never did it

[quote=it-ogo]

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Originally Posted by "Оля":9apdd329

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Originally Posted by ac220

By the way, while mining lib.ru for other examples of usage, I've found something really unusual:

Никто не знал о нашей связи, за это я вам ручаюсь, хотя так никогда и не бывает.

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I don't see anything unusual in this example. :unknown:

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+1
"Хотя и" + "так не бывает" = "хотя так и не бывает"
[/quote:9apdd329]
Aha. How exactly "никогда" got there, if you yourself avoided it in your own re-phrasing? Exactly Bulgakov's phrase works in exactly the context it was used in, no doubt, but why does it sound natural?

And yes, Оля's explanation of difference between the "так и не" and "никогда" is right on.

It wouldn't work with other tense/aspect combinations though: "так не бывает", "так и не бывает", "так никогда не бывает"... It's something else. I can't explain the difference well, but it exists.

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Originally Posted by ac220

Exactly Bulgakov's phrase works in exactly the context it was used in, no doubt, but why does it sound natural?

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I keep wondering what strange do you find in that phrase. :unknown:
Type "никогда и не бывает" in Google and you'll see a lot of examples which all sound absolutely natural.

By the way, it's another construction. (If that's what confuses you here). "Он так и не позвонил ей" and "Так и не бывает никогда" are different constructions and have nothing to do with each other.

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by ac220

Exactly Bulgakov's phrase works in exactly the context it was used in, no doubt, but why does it sound natural?

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I keep wondering what strange do you find in that phrase. :unknown:

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Mainly, that in context it seems a perfectly OK phrase, useful in other similar contexts, but exactly this one "так никогда и не бывает" was used by just a handful of people on the whole Net, as if people are avoiding it and preferring paraphrases. There ought to be orders of magnitude more uses. It's even rarer than "центральноамериканский" ! This might be some weird artifact of the way search engines work, of course... (ADD: At first I indeed thought that it's similar to "так никогда и не решил " but it is not, you're right. And that makes this aversion even more weird.)

Anyway, this is off-topic here.

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Originally Posted by ac220

It's even rarer than "центральноамериканский" !

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For "центральноамериканский" Google gives me 23800 results, and for "никогда и не бывает" it gives me 2 020 000 results.

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by ac220

It's even rarer than "центральноамериканский" !

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For "центральноамериканский" Google gives me 23800 results, and for "никогда и не бывает" it gives me 2 020 000 results.

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"так никогда и не бывает" Again, i mean the entire phrase. Just "никогда и не быавает" is indeed that common.

"так никогда и не бывает" is different. Google claims 264 000 hits, but actually displays circa 10 results that aren't quotes from Bulgakov. If one uses more advanced err... googlemancy, with searches like ["так никогда и не бывает" баскетбол] or ["так никогда и не бывает" самолёт] it's still 10 times less common than "так никогда не бывает" sometimes much worse than that.

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Originally Posted by ac220

"так никогда и не бывает" Again, i mean the entire phrase. Just "никогда и не быавает" is indeed that common.

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I don't see any difference between так никогда и не бывает and
такого никогда и не бывает
никогда и не бывает, чтобы...
никогда и не бывает так[, чтобы...]
никогда и не бывает такого[, чтобы...]
такого и не бывает никогда

and so on.

All these are the same construction. You can't put them all in Google as a single construction, but that's what they are. There is nothing unusual or unnatural about them. I don't understand why you are so crazy about that particular phrase.

I'm not really. It's just mild surprise and interest. If I were "crazy" about it, I would have already done something more involved than a few dozens of Google searches. :)