Thread: the use of "при"

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

in this context, it would usually be translated as "when/while + gerund." Будьте осторожны при работе с электричеством! - be careful when working with electricity.

John, I agree with you. But the problem is it only works in one direction: Russian -> English. Yes, it can be translated this way.

However, it is not always possible to translate the English construction of "when/while + gerund" into Russian using "при + noun". I can provide many examples when it does not work. And also many examples where it does.

Examples (sorry for my English if there are any mistakes):

The boss talked to his colleagues while smoking a cigarette.
Wrong: Начальник разговаривал с коллегами при курении сигареты.
Right: Начальник разговаривал с коллегами и курил сигарету. Начальник разговаривал с коллегами, куря сигарету. Начальник разговаривал с коллегами, пока курил сигарету.

While driving a car, he saw a meteorite in the sky. (Hello, Chelyabinsk )
Wrong: При вождении автомобиля он увидел метеорит в небе.
Right: Когда он вёл машину, он увидел метеорит в небе. Во время поездки на машине он увидел метеорит в небе. Ведя машину, он внезапно увидел метеорит в небе.

Please do not spill ash on the floor when smoking a cigarette!
Просьба не сорить пеплом при курении сигареты. - Possible.

While driving a car do not exceed the speed limit!
При вождении автомобиля не превышайте скорость! - Possible.

What I can conclude from those examples - "при + action noun" can be used when the whole sentence expresses something which is directly related to the action expressed by the noun. E.g. spilling ash on the floor is directly related to smoking. Exceeding the speed limit is directly related to driving.

But I am not sure if this explanation is complete. Sometimes non-native speakers know the grammar rules better than natives do. So, I have a question to non-natives (John and others are welcome): do you know any rule when this construction with "при" is used?

It seems to me that this use of при is only used when talking in general terms about an action. I'm not sure you if you can say я получил ожог при работе с электричеством... at least it sounds a bit strange to me.

Another fairly common expression is при наличии, meaning "if/ when something exists/ is available/ present".

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

я получил ожог при работе с электричеством... at least it sounds a bit strange to me.

To me it sounds normal. At least, I would not surprise if I hear this phrase. Maybe, it is a bit "official", but just a little bit.

But if you suggest "Я разговаривал с начальником при работе с электричеством", then yes, it is awkward. I would replace it with "... во время работы с электричеством" then.

Other opinions are welcome

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

To me it sounds normal. At least, I would not surprise if I hear this phrase. Maybe, it is a bit "official", but just a little bit.

But if you suggest "Я разговаривал с начальником при работе с электричеством", then yes, it is awkward. I would replace it with "... во время работы с электричеством" then.

Other opinions are welcome

So I guess your previous post is more or less correct - this construction with при is used when one action is a part of the other action, but not when two unconnected actions are just happening at the same time, whereas in English "while/when" can be used for both.

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

So I guess your previous post is more or less correct - this construction with при is used when one action is a part of the other action, ...

Not always though. There must exist the proper noun in Russian: курение, вождение, ...
Hence no ПРИ in the sentence:
Ёжики плакали, кололись, но продолжали жрать кактус.

Но ПРИ большом желании, можно переписать его:
При поедании кактуса ёжики плачут и колются.