Talking about events in the past or in the future?

I am having some trouble understanding this and some examples would be great. The grammar confuses a bit and sometimes I am not sure whether to use "в" or "на".

I am hoping I can understand this better with some examples.
Is anybody willing to translate?

(I am "throwing in" some other words too, so I can learn them at the same time...)


Future
By next spring I will be fluent in Russian.
He can not afford to go on holiday until next summer.
In the autumn she will take a Russian language course.
At ome time during next winter I will take a skiing holiday in Switzerland.
My sister is coming to visit next week.
My cousin is having a baby next month.
You need to finish this work by next week.
We must continue working on this until next Wednesday.
Unfortunately I will be too busy to see you at all before next Friday.
Next month is January, isn't it?
The Christmas sales will start next week. ("christmas sales"=reduced price in the shops after Christmas; means you can find bargains.)
In the new year I will go on a diet!
During next year I will continue to study Russian.

Past
You should have done that last week, now it is too late!
Last month I had a cold.
Nobody has seen him since last September.
I bought these boots in November.
This cheese has been in my fridge since October.
Last winter I did not get a chance to ski at all.
Last summer the water in the lake was too cold for swimming.
She hasn't been on a date since last spring.
He started studying Russian last autumn.

:wall: :evil:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6726/83280692.jpg

I won't show my meagre skills by giving you translations, but can you be more precise about what it is in the tenses that gives you problems?

В and на can be problematic; as a general rule, it seems that if it is something with a roof so you can be inside, use в. If not or often if it is seen as an institution rather than a building, so the function is more important, use на. For example, you go на почту, = to the post office, because the function of the building as a post office is your goal, not the fact that it is a building as such.

I've also been told that в is more frequent, so if in doubt I choose that.

Robin

Thanks Robin! This is probably a little bit easier for you - if I am not mistaken it's rather complicated in German too... Perhaps it's even using a similar pattern of grammar.

Thanks for the explanation about B being more common than NA.
I've noticed that too, but then when I "least expect it" a sentence is using NA instead!

I had just put in a bunch of expressions in my flashcard set. For example:
"Next week..." , "Last month"... etc. But it won't stick properly! I have repeated these cards so many times. On my flashcards there was no context to the sentence. Perhaps with a context it will start making more sense.

Plus there is the grammatical side of bending the "subject" (?) in the sentence, like "В ппрошлом году"....

There is just so much to mess up in this simple phrase; "next year" and similar expressions!

Also, I need to cram grammar concepts so I can actually TALK about these things in a comprehensible way. What little I used to know, I have forgotten...

There are no strict rules in Russian concerning the use of the Present Tense meaning some future event -- you can use either the future form (e.g. приедет -- will come/arrive) or the present (e.g. приезжает -- is coming). So, if in English it is obligatory to use Present Progressive in sentences like "He is coming tomorrow" ('coming' meaning by train or some other means of transport, not on foot), in Russian you can say both "Он приезжает завтра" and "Он приедет завтра". You can even say "Завтра он приезжает" if you want to stress the fact that it's 'tomorrow' and not on some other day. Or even "Завтра приедет он". See, Russian is extremely flexible. :good:

P.S. On second thoughts, "приезжает" (i.e., the Present tense) sounds better...

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Future
By next spring I will be fluent in Russian. К (следующей) весне/Весной я буду свободно говорить по-русски.
He cannot afford to go on holiday until next summer. Он не сможет уйти в отпуск до следующего лета./Он сможет взять отпуск только следующим летом.
In the autumn she will take a Russian language course. Осенью она запишется на курсы русского языка/возьмется за русский.
Next winter I will take a skiing holiday in Switzerland. Следующей зимой я буду кататься на лыжах в Швейцарии.
My sister is coming to visit next week. Моя сестра приезжает/приедет в гости на следующей неделе.
My cousin is having a baby next month. У моей двоюродной сестры родится ребенок в следующем месяце./Моя двоюродная сестра рожает в следующем месяце.
You need to finish this work by next week. Тебе надо закончить/окончить эту работу к следующей неделе.
Next month is January, isn't it? Следующий месяц (ведь) январь, да?
The Christmas sales will start next week. ("christmas sales"=reduced price in the shops after Christmas; means you can find bargains.) Рождественские распродажи начнутся (Future) /начинаются (Present) со следующей недели.
Past
You should have done that last week, now it is too late! Это надо было сделать ещё на прошлой неделе, а теперь уже (слишком) поздно! / Ты должен был это сделать...
Last month I had a cold. У меня было простуда в прошлом месяце.
Nobody has seen him since last September. Никто его не видел с прошлого сентября/с сентября прошлого года.
I bought these boots in November. Я купил(а) эти ботинки в ноябре.
This cheese has been in my fridge since October. Этот сыр лежит у меня в холодильнике с октября. (if it's still lying there)
Last winter I did not get a chance to ski at all. Прошлой зимой мне совсем/и вовсе не удалось покататься на лыжах.
Last summer the water in the lake was too cold for swimming. Прошлым летом вода в озере была слишком холодной для плавания / чтобы (в ней) плавать.
She hasn't been on a date since last spring. Она ни с кем не встречалась с прошлой весны. (the literal translation of 'be/go on a date' is "ходить на свидания" but I think it's not used too often...)
He started studying Russian last autumn. Он стал/начал учить русский прошлой/той осенью.

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Hmm... Something like this.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Thanks Robin! This is probably a little bit easier for you - if I am not mistaken it's rather complicated in German too... Perhaps it's even using a similar pattern of grammar.

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Indeed, though it would be too much to ask that German and Russian agree all the time... :)

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I had just put in a bunch of expressions in my flashcard set. For example:
"Next week..." , "Last month"... etc. But it won't stick properly! I have repeated these cards so many times. On my flashcards there was no context to the sentence. Perhaps with a context it will start making more sense.

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I should add that I was referring to в and на in a context of location, as 'where does it take place?', which takes prepositive, or 'where do we move towards?', which takes accusative.

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Plus there is the grammatical side of bending the "subject" (?) in the sentence, like "В ппрошлом году"....

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When it's not in nominative case it's not a subject. This is accusative. In (English) grammar terms it is an adverbial phrase of time.

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There is just so much to mess up in this simple phrase; "next year" and similar expressions!

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Indeed, the various prepositions for 'when?' plus a specific category (day, month, year, hour...) need to be learned.

Robin

Thanks Starrysky! I was worried that I was perhaps asking for too much translation.. Don't want to take peoples' helpfulness for granted..

http://rae4401.com/RA-PurpleFramedAngel-ThankYou.gif

This will be brilliant for me... I am hoping that I will be able to see some pattern.

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Originally Posted by starrysky

See, Russian is extremely flexible. :good:

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Yeah - linguistically it's a very cool language. People in IT (my area) joke that the reason Russians tend to be good at the "serious" programming languages is because of the syntax of the Russian langauge (applies to some other Slavic langauges too, I guess). The idea is that Russian allows for very minimalistic sentences and inventiveness in word order and structure. All this is good for writing efficient computer code. Not sure if it's really true, but I've heard this claim a few times. I worked once with a Serbian and a Russian guy - they teased me for my "essay" code (=too long). They wrote the same routine in half the space it took me. Which is why I am a manager now, hehe...


Thanks also for the tips, Robin! It's so nice to have a helpful learner who is a couple of steps ahead of me... Some things are better explained by somebody who had to consciously learn them than somebody who always knew them and never had to make the effort... Personally I can't explain a lot of things about Swedish. English is easier for me to explain because it has been a conscious effort to learn it.

I've got to cram plain regular grammar until I learn the concepts. For some reason I find it very hard. In school I studied mainly French and Spanish and grammar skills on that level aren't needed in the same way for those langauges as they are for Russian (and German...) So i never had an opportunity to practice it

There is no logic in the use of prepositions and cases in the formation of time complements so you have to learn all this, or, more likely, you have to get used to this. It is very important not to learn isolated chunks because in many case there is not only one correct variant, it is a matter of meaning. With неделя for example, you can say
На этой/прошлой/будущей неделе.
But you can also say
В эту/ту/первую/ (во) вторую/... неделю.

So you see that with этот you get to choose. Now you don't choose by tossing a coin, obviously. Those phrases do not mean the same.
На этой неделе is what you use when you are speaking of *this* week, I mean, the current week. Like "This week I'm getting married".
В эту неделю is what you use when there is some kind of narration, that is, events are going on, there is a chronological frame, and the week you are talking about is known by the context. For example, if some friend has a free week and wants to visit you, and you are busy, you will tell him something like "В эту неделю я буду занята", meaning "During the week you're talking about", and not "THIS week, the current week, I'm busy".
Then if you want to say that you go to the swimming-pool three times a week, this is also в неделю: Я хожу в бассейн три раза в неделю.

In some cases, not every Russian will agree on what is right or wrong. I asked two Russians about the difference between этот раз, на этот раз, в этот раз and if they all sounded equally good and they had two different opinions.

Russians fellows, please correct me if I said something wrong. :)

Time complement are a very complex matter. I think it will take many years before we get to master this part of grammar.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

There is no logic in the use of prepositions and cases in the formation of time complements so you have to learn all this, or, more likely, you have to get used to this. It is very important not to learn isolated chunks because in many case there is not only one correct variant, it is a matter of meaning.

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Yes, I absolutely agree with this. But to some degree this seems to be true for many foreign languages -- some things you just have to learn because they don't seem to have any logic to them (like the preposition 'to' in this sentence and similar sentences # There are many nasty aspects to this case). From the Russian standpoint, English prepositions often seem quite hard to learn.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

"В эту неделю я буду занята", meaning "During the week you're talking about", and not "THIS week, the current week, I'm busy".

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Hmmm... "В эту неделю" seems ok but I'd actually say "Эту неделю я занята" or even "На этой неделе я занята." Yeah, lots of variants.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Yeah - linguistically it's a very cool language. People in IT (my area) joke that the reason Russians tend to be good at the "serious" programming languages is because of the syntax of the Russian langauge

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Here it's often said that English is cool because it's straight, clear and analytical.

Continuing with the "He's coming tomorrow" sentence -- I've counted 12 possible ways of translating this phrase (the neutral and 'normal' ones are in bold; the one in cursive you are less likely to hear in everyday speech):

1. Он приедет завтра.
Он завтра приедет.
Приедет он завтра.
Приедет завтра он.
Завтра он приедет.
Завтра приедет он.

2. Он приезжает завтра.
Он завтра приезжает.
Завтра он приезжает.
Завтра приезжает он.
Приезжает он завтра.
Приезжает завтра он.

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Originally Posted by starrysky

Hmmm... "В эту неделю" seems ok but I'd actually say "Эту неделю я занята" or even "На этой неделе я занята." Yeah, lots of variants.

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Удивляюсь. :shock: Ты в самом деле сказал бы «на этой неделе» если речь идёт не о настоящей неделе, а о будущей? А что если ты говоришь о прошлом? Например: «Извини, что не позвонила, но я была очень занята (в) эту неделю» или «я была очень занята на этой неделе»?

Очень интересная тема вообще. У меня вопросов есть море, но я не стану их ставить сюда.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

[s:29ygwqtc]Удивляюсь[/s:29ygwqtc] Странно. :shock: Ты в самом деле сказал бы «на этой неделе» если речь идёт не о настоящей неделе, а о будущей? А что если ты говоришь о прошлом? Например: «Извини, что не позвонила, но я была очень занята (в) эту неделю» или «я была очень занята на этой неделе»?

Очень интересная тема вообще. У меня вопросов есть море, но я не стану их [s:29ygwqtc]ставить сюда[/s:29ygwqtc] задавать здесь.

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«Извини, что не позвонила, но я была очень занята на той неделе.» (Имеется в виду на прошлой неделе (the week before this one).)

«Извини, что не позвонила в первую неделю марта, но я была очень занята на этой неделе.» "Эта" можно говорить, если в предыдущем тексте было явное упоминание конкретной недели. Тогда местоимение "эта" ссылается на это :) упоминание.

Гм.. Надеюсь, Йоханна простит меня, но я вот не удовлетворюсь, пока не пойму. Позвольте мне попробовать ещё раз определить разницу между «на этой неделе» и «в эту неделю». Я поискал примера, вот что нашёл:

Замечу вскользь, что в эту несчастную неделю я вынес много тоски, -
оставаясь почти безотлучно подле бедного сосватанного друга моего, в
качестве ближайшего его конфидента. Тяготил его, главное, стыд, хотя мы в
эту неделю никого не видали и все сидели одни; но он стыдился даже и меня, и
до того, что чем более сам открывал мне, тем более и досадовал на меня за
это.

(Из «Бесов» Достоевского)

Что вы думаете? Тут возможны были и обороты с предлогом на, управляющым предложный падеж?

А что если событие не занимает всё время недели? Например: «Я родился в ту же неделю, когда человек в первый раз ступил на Луну».

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Originally Posted by Zubr

Гм.. Надеюсь, Юханна простит меня, но я вот не удовлетворюсь, пока не пойму. Позвольте мне попробовать ещё раз определить разницу между «на этой неделе» и «в эту неделю». Я поискал примеры, вот что нашёл:

Замечу вскользь, что в эту несчастную неделю я вынес много тоски, -
оставаясь почти безотлучно подле бедного сосватанного друга моего, в
качестве ближайшего его конфидента. Тяготил его, главное, стыд, хотя мы в
эту неделю никого не видали и все сидели одни; но он стыдился даже и меня, и
до того, что чем более сам открывал мне, тем более и досадовал на меня за
это.

(Из «Бесов» Достоевского)

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Если кратко, то употребление слова "неделя" с предлогом "в" звучит устаревше. Я никогда не скажу "в ту неделю я была занята". Только "на той неделе".

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А что если событие не занимает всё время недели? Например: «Я родился в ту же неделю, когда человек в первый раз ступил на Луну».

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Это приемлемо, но всё равно "Я родился на той же неделе..." звучит более современно.

"В эту неделю" действительно звучит немного устаревше, хотя в общем-то слух не режет. :dunno: Возможно, дело в том, что "в эту неделю" зарезервировано исключительно для повествования и воспринимается как литературная форма. Т.е. в обычной жизни редко кто будет так рассказывать:

Замечу вскользь, что в эту несчастную неделю я вынес много тоски...

Основное значение "на этой неделе", действительно "this week." Однако, это выражение также может означать любую неделю, если предварительно упоминается, что это за неделя:

#-- С 15 по 22 будет проходить фестиваль народных искусств. Может сходим?
-- Нет, на этой неделе я занята/на той неделе я буду занята.

Как уже говорилось, есть также выражения "на той неделе", "на прошлой неделе" и "на следующей неделе".

Набрала в yandex.ru "в эту неделю" -- такое ощущение, что в основном этот оборот используется в гороскопах и текстах, связанных с религией:

-- "Третья подготовительная неделя называется “мясопустною”, или “сырною”, а по народному – “масленица”. В эту неделю уже нельзя есть мясо". (про пост)
-- "Удачу в эту неделю могут принести: общение с влиятельными людьми, особенно старшего поколения... (гороскоп)
-- "СКОРПИОНУ рекомендуется поберечь финансовые ресурсы - в эту неделю доходная статья вашего бюджета может оказаться несколько ниже расходной". (гороскоп)
-- "Сны в эту неделю могут быть пророческими. Любые поездки Львам лучше отложить до четверга, тогда же могут появиться предложения о новых заработках, поступит нужная информация". (гороскоп)
-- "В эту неделю нежелательно совершать крупные покупки — велик риск напрасной траты денег и приобретения совершенно ненужных, да к тому же некачественных вещей. На выигрыши и удачные вложения средств тоже лучше не рассчитывать". (гороскоп)

Спасибо! Всё это очень интересно.

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Набрала в yandex.ru "в эту неделю" -- такое ощущение, что в основном этот оборот используется в гороскопах и текстах, связанных с религией

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Гороскопы появились в первых рядах потому, что вы ввели в поисковик слово, связанное со временем. А о времени больше всего пишут астрологи.

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English is cool because it's straight, clear and analytical.

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It's just REALLY different from Russian, that's for sure. I think it's VERY illogical though. The spelling/pronounciation is illogical and many common expressions.
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I have forgotten how I learnt the basics of English because I was too young at the time.

But I remember being a teenager and being embarrased of speaking English with some British and American students at my school.

So I started reading in English only. After doing that for a while , many things started falling into place for me.

Reading is definitely the right way to improve grammar. I am just not sure if I'm ready yet... I was MUCH better at English when I started reading in English than what I am at Russian right now.

In order to understand most sentences that are written here I have to run at least one word in the translator plugin in Firefox...

You should try to read something in Russian anyway. I bought my first Russian novel about half a year ago, which was also half a year into learning the language, and I read it at glacial speed. But I have finished it. Now I'm on my second. Things falling into place is exactly what you'll notice. And you can always read it again later to see what you missed. :)

Robin

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He cannot afford to go on holiday until next summer. Он не сможет уйти в отпуск до следующего лета./Он сможет взять отпуск только следующим летом.

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"He cannot afford" This part you did not mention. It specifically implies "money".

Can you give a couple of examples in Russian?
perhaps, с трудом позволить себе такой расход or ему не по карману


How natural would this be to you?
Отпуск, ему не по карману до следующего лета.

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

You should try to read something in Russian anyway. I bought my first Russian novel about half a year ago, which was also half a year into learning the language, and I read it at glacial speed. But I have finished it. Now I'm on my second. Things falling into place is exactly what you'll notice. And you can always read it again later to see what you missed. :)
Robin

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Thanks for the tip. Starrysky said the same thing and I trust both your opinions.
Ok, I'll start the "Sister Pelagia" book by Akunin over Christmas.
What is "glacial speed"? I guess it must mean slow...

I honestly don't think I have the same degree of talent with languages as you or Starrysky though. I more or less got kicked out of Russian in school, because I fell behind (didn't study enough... ) I never quite got over that! And despite 5 years of French I can't have a simple conversation without making tons of mistakes.

The English books I read as a teenager were the trashiest and most formulaic sort of bestseller you can imagine. I got hooked on a super-trashy series that contained over ten quite lengthy books.. (Virginia Andrews....) I remember starting the series and missing some vital information but being a lot better by the last book. I just read and ignored the words I didn't know.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

What is "glacial speed"? I guess it must mean slow...

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Yes, the speed at which a glacier moves.

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I honestly don't think I have the same degree of talent with languages as you or Starrysky though. I more or less got kicked out of Russian in school, because I fell behind (didn't study enough... ) I never quite got over that! And despite 5 years of French I can't have a simple conversation without making tons of mistakes.

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Maybe you still need to find the best way for you to learn a language. I totally sucked at Latin. Granted, they don't teach that as a language but as an arcane system of tables, implying that modern humans are too stupid to learn the language. That's just not the way to learn a language for me. I probably learned English well because there's little use in putting it into tables... ;) I learned English because I read many novels, sang (well screamed, growled) along to music and fell in undying love with Monty Python. School and structured learning only provided the very basics. Likewise with Russian: you won't catch me using flash cards to learn words, I don't even make the slightest attempt at actually memorizing anything. I just use the language by reading and writing e-mails, and when I have to I look up the same word a hundred times until it sticks, but only when I need it. As I always take it from a context it gets far better integration in my mind than if I learned it only because I had to, with no context at all. I also read a couple of grammar books front to back to see what to expect, but I still look up cases and conjugations.

It is my strong belief that I can assimilate the language in much the same way a child does, with the additional advantage of being able to support that intellectually by comparing the language with others and by analyzing grammar. And so far I am sure my Russian is much better than that of any one-year-old native speaker. Especially in writing. :D

And as for English, you shouldn't forget there's a good chance that I've been learning and using English for longer than you live. That's a bit of a headstart.

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The English books I read as a teenager were the trashiest and most formulaic sort of bestseller you can imagine.

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Well, this isn't about a Russian Literature major but the language as such. My first English novel was Stephen King's Pet Sematary. My first Russian novel was Oksana Robski's Casual (yes, English title, but Russian text... ;) ). Not exactly high literature, but, and that's the good thing about it, realistic in literary terms. Actual everyday language and situations. Now I am reading Ночной дозор. Many more words my dictionary doesn't include than in Casual. Though I suspect some are caused by typos. For example радражение - not in any dictionary of mine, but раздражение is.

In any case, I'm not much interested in high literature, no matter which language. Learning needs to be fun, not pain.

Robin

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Originally Posted by DDT

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He cannot afford to go on holiday until next summer. Он не сможет уйти в отпуск до следующего лета./Он сможет взять отпуск только следующим летом.

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"He cannot afford" This part you did not mention. It specifically implies "money".

Can you give a couple of examples in Russian?
perhaps, с трудом позволить себе такой расход or ему не по карману

How natural would this be to you?
Отпуск, ему не по карману до следующего лета.

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Oh yes, thanks for the correction, DDT. I totally didn't notice this aspect. I understood "can't afford" as relating not to money but time, a lot of work at the present moment and so on. In Russian "не может позволить себе уйти в отпуск" doesn't necessarily mean the money aspect, I think... :upset: However if the English sentence implies it, the correct translation might be the one you suggested only without the comma:

Отпуск ему не по карману до следующего лета.

Wow, I agree with everything bitpicker says!

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

I learned English because I read many novels, sang (well screamed, growled) along to music and fell in undying love with Monty Python. School and structured learning only provided the very basics.

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Same here. Only in my case it was Harry Potter at the age of 17. :roll: I heard of some people finally mastering English because of their interest in pornography. :wacko: Interest and motivation are everything.

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Likewise with Russian: you won't catch me using flash cards to learn words, I don't even make the slightest attempt at actually memorizing anything.

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Agreed. I don't even know what a flashcard is. :mosking: Are they bits of paper/cardbord that you write new words and expressions on and carry around in your pocket in order to look at them from time to time and memorize them? I never memorize anything because it's boring. I remember words because I read constantly and they constantly pop up again. So no special effort is required, they just stick in your head by themselves. And what's more important, you remember them much better because of the context. For example, I'll always think: "Oh yes, I remember this word from "Rich Man, Poor Man"" or some other book that I've read.

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

I have to I look up the same word a hundred times until it sticks, but only when I need it. As I always take it from a context it gets far better integration in my mind than if I learned it only because I had to, with no context at all. I also read a couple of grammar books front to back to see what to expect, but I still look up cases and conjugations.

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+100. Same story here. Grammar tables are a useful tool but there's no use trying them learn it all by heart, especially with Russian...

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

It is my strong belief that I can assimilate the language in much the same way a child does, with the additional advantage of being able to support that intellectually by comparing the language with others and by analyzing grammar.

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Yes, I agree with that as well. How do children learn their native language? They hear it spoken by their parents all the time, it's spoken on tv and in the street/kindergarten, they're read books by their parents and later they read themselves. This is all a huge amount of INPUT. They hear the same words and grammar structures hundreds of times so they memorize those words and structures whether they want it or not. So it is basically the amount and immersion which matter most of all. Quantity ultimately turns into quality.

There were different approaches to teaching foreign languages at different times, like the grammar translation method, which was mostly about learning grammar and translating sentences (boring but some elements are useful), audio-lingual, etc. Teachers believed that all they probably had to do was speak to their pupils the foreign language during maybe 2 lessons a week and make them repeat certain pharses and voila! they can speak the language. It doesn't work like that. I personally believe in the Natural approach, which puts the emphasis on exposure to language/input rather than formal exercises. The learning hypothesis in this approach states that only natural-like acquisition can result in mastering the language while "learning" only helps to get knowledge about the language.

In the same way I don't realy believe in "communicative teaching", which is extremely popular now. This theory basically states that all you have to do is divide your students into pairs/groups, give them some communicative task and make them speak. People can't speak a language if they haven't had a lot of input, if they haven't read a lot. To speak freely even the simplest phrases like "Well, how are you?"-- "Oh I'm fine, thanks. And you?" and be able to vary them according to the situation, you have to feel confident with the language, to have read a lot. Simply parroting a couple of dialogues from a textbook, which is what school usually offers, is not enough.

Well, that feels like a whole bucket of foreign language teaching theory but I'll be back with something more practical...

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Originally Posted by starrysky

I never memorize anything because it's boring. I remember words because I read constantly and they constantly pop up again. So no special effort is required, they just stick in your head by themselves. And what's more important, you remember them much better because of the context. For example, I'll always think: "Oh yes, I remember this word from "Rich Man, Poor Man"" or some other book that I've read.

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+1

(only in my case it's not books :oops: Rather films and forums)

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Originally Posted by starrysky

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

I learned English because I read many novels, sang (well screamed, growled) along to music and fell in undying love with Monty Python. School and structured learning only provided the very basics.

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Same here. Only in my case it was Harry Potter at the age of 17. :roll: I heard of some people finally mastering English because of their interest in pornography. :wacko: Interest and motivation are everything.

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A big part of my generation learned English from PC games. :) To get what is going on in, say, "Planescape:Torment" one should have decent English vocabulary. Localizations are evil. :D

The brain is a devious device. And lazy. Flash cards, tables and ultimately exercises are a nuisance to it. You can memorize a declension table, but your brain will just seek the easy way out: it will learn that in the table the entry in the instrumental plural cell is -ами; but that doesn't mean the information is available when you need an instrumental plural.

I've had many a student in English whom I tried to help through exams. Of course usually they were pretty hopeless cases to begin with. But one thing I have noticed throughout: you can give them the rules for, say, if-clauses and have them memorize them. You can give them exercise books full of example sentences and fill-in-the-blanks texts until they can draw the pages from memory; but in a real-world situation when they need to formulate a simple if-clause they will still be stumped. That's because they never understood the things, they never learned them for usage, they only ever learned them to pass the exam or to finish the bloody exercise.

Until a couple of weeks ago I had a student who after better than four years of learning English in school still was stumped by such rare and unusual words as 'do' and 'be'. I bet the furniture in that classroom had soaked up more English than he had. But if all your brain seeks is always the easy way out, and that's what it will do if it doesn't have any fun when learning, then no amount of work will ever suffice.

Robin

Language is not algebra. Language is a correspondence between thoughts and their expression. Each language is an open continuum which is created by many people of different trades and in different cultural contexts. One of the most common ways to create something new is analogy. Being applied on various levels, it gives a nested recombination of known elements which correspond to known images related to perception and reasoning. Human brain has all the necessary power to learn any language from scratch, not using any grammar. A native language is learned as a set of patterns. And each pattern makes sense. Formal grammar does not make sense, it lacks in detail. That's why it is much easier to read 10000 pages of text and conversation and learn a lot from it than to drill oneself with cards and guess-the-word exercises. I managed to push my English to an advanced level by doing so.