Thread: This is really frustrating me

This is probably a common issue amongst people who are learning Russian or any other language for that matter.

This surrounds Verbs and there conjugation in various tenses.
I understand the basics of looking for the stem of the words but there seem to be so many rules as to if the letter is x ,y etc you use this and not that.

What I want to know if there is perhaps a simpler way than trying to remember all the various scenarios.On reading the New Penguine course I just end up getting confused with rules for this and that as to what ending the stem of the word should have.Not only that but also in determining what gender if any the relevant words are.

Has anyone come across any excercises or even found a more simpler way of rembering how verbs change there endings in the various tenses.
I am sorry if this sounds confusing and hope you can understand my ramblings.If indeed anyone can help be it with links or even there own methods I would like to hear from them.

Originally Posted by ang12el

This is probably a common issue amongst people who are learning Russian or any other language for that matter.

This surrounds Verbs and there conjugation in various tenses.
I understand the basics of looking for the stem of the words but there seem to be so many rules as to if the letter is x ,y etc you use this and not that.

What I want to know if there is perhaps a simpler way than trying to remember all the various scenarios.On reading the New Penguine course I just end up getting confused with rules for this and that as to what ending the stem of the word should have.Not only that but also in determining what gender if any the relevant words are.

Has anyone come across any excercises or even found a more simpler way of rembering how verbs change there endings in the various tenses.
I am sorry if this sounds confusing and hope you can understand my ramblings.If indeed anyone can help be it with links or even there own methods I would like to hear from them.

it's similar to what people experience when learning such languages as German or Spanish (perhaps to a slightly lesser degree). Imho links and more books on the subject are not much use because most of them will just throw more conjugation tables at you. I might be wrong but imho at the beginning stages one has to put more emphasis on reading/listening to examples. I remember when I first saw the spanish verb conjugation tables I simply ignored them, because I couldn't remember all the endings for the present tense for more than a minute, you know, once the page was turned over it I'd be like, "tu etnra, or know tu entras and nosotros do what entran or entramos or something else?" and it's the same story in German, ich sschrieve do schreibest wir schreiben etc, but what I found was that these things have a tendency to get memorized sort of on their own the more you read and do excercises and not just grammar excercises but text based excercises as well, lik asking and answering questions on texts, that sort of stuff. See when you have text then what you see/hear in it makes you mentally connect the form and the meaning and it eventually sinks in that Куда прешь? and куда прете? actually mean two different things, once these distinctions in meaning are properly appreciated the different forms, suffixes etc begin to fall into place. Think about lots of people speak Russian and have no more problems with it than the speakers of any other language out there would have with their language. Imho it's all down to what the call the plasticity of the brain, or in laymen's terms we, humans, have a tendency to get used to things. The Germans in concentration camps woold make people wear optical sights on their eyes ithrough which everything looked upside down and guess what, after a while the brain would adapt and the subjects would then get disoriented when their sights were removed. So the bottom line is that it just takes time before you get used to it, the question remains what do you do to get used to it, the obvious answer is you do that by getting as much exposure to it as you can get, read it, hear it that kind of stuff and don't get too frustrated when try to say/write something and get it all wrong, these things happen, remember the natural order is that you first should learn to parse it reliably, then production will come more naturally.
the above is all just mho.

The more you learn and see and hear Russian in use you get used to how thing conjugate. I never learnt the rules per se.

But, when you say, in the various tenses, Russian only has two tenses that require changes of the ending.

The present
and The past

The future perfective is formed the same way as the present. The conditional is formed using the past, and is a mood anyway, as is the imperative.

Are you asking about the various different endings for the present tense. You need to clarify what you mean. I don't see how anyone can have trouble with the past tense endings as they are super easy.

I am talking about this as an example

http://masterrussian.com/aa021100a.shtml
and this http://masterrussian.com/aa032600a.shtml

it is so confusing when you have to take off letters not only that but when you are trying decide if something is femenine,masculine,neuture.

For me even though I read and read again the new penguine book it just doesnt seem to sink in yes I can read Russian text but if I am to speak it I get it all wrong and end up using the incorrect endings to words..

I appreicate that many many people have learnt succesfully but not everyone learns the same way and perhaps other members on here have a different approach to the subject that they could share with me. Maybe by looking at it from a different angle will help

Thanks

Ang12el... It gets even much more complicated... You must persevere. Russian is a freakin' hard language dude. My recommendations for getting accustomed to basic conjugation are
1. Pimsleur Audio
2. Maybe a Tutor in which you can practice saying/writing simple sentences
3. A SIMPLIFIED grammar books (which do exists)
4. An elementary Reader in Russian that don't use more than 30 new verbs in the entire book.
5. Make a Russian friend.
6. Go to Russia where you will sink or swim. (Swimming is more fun)

Good luck! Most of us can relate or STILL feel your pain!

Originally Posted by ang12el

I am talking about this as an example

http://masterrussian.com/aa021100a.shtml
and this http://masterrussian.com/aa032600a.shtml

it is so confusing when you have to take off letters not only that but when you are trying decide if something is femenine,masculine,neuture.

For me even though I read and read again the new penguine book it just doesnt seem to sink in yes I can read Russian text but if I am to speak it I get it all wrong and end up using the incorrect endings to words..

I appreicate that many many people have learnt succesfully but not everyone learns the same way and perhaps other members on here have a different approach to the subject that they could share with me. Maybe by looking at it from a different angle will help

Thanks

People are always looking for quick fixes. Sometimes you just have to learn. If you try and try and try and learn and it doesn't sink in, you don't have a mind for languages.

The fact is some poeple aren't good at languages and some are.

The fact is some poeple aren't good at languages and some are.

I disagree here. I take the view that everyone can master a foreign language unless he's totally stupid! This was said by many people who had an excellent command of a large number of foreign languages. I think that the main problem you face when studying a foreign language is that there are tons of ways of studying it. You don't know which way is suitable for you. Also, a lot depends on teachers. Peope who have a gift for languages can quite easily master a few foreign languages by themselves. This is their only advantage over others. I want to say once more that everyone can master a foreign language if he's not stupid and lazy.

Originally Posted by ReDSanchous

The fact is some poeple aren't good at languages and some are.

I disagree here. I take the view that everyone can master a foreign language unless he's totally stupid! This was said by many people who had an excellent command of a large number of foreign languages. I think that the main problem you face when studying a foreign language is that there are tons of ways of studying it. You don't know which way is suitable for you. Also, a lot depends on teachers. Peope who have a gift for languages can quite easily master a few foreign languages by themselves. This is their only advantage over others. I want to say once more that everyone can master a foreign language if he's not stupid and lazy.

There is a difference between mastering and being a "language person."

There is also the factor of how much you desire to learn a language.

Who would normally learn more in a shorter space of time: someone who takes a compulsory Russian language course as part of a school curriculum and would prefer to learn Spanish or something or someone who pays for lessons out of the sheer self-motivation to learn this language?

I agree that people learn better using different ways to compared with others.

Diving head first into the grammar and getting frustrated when none of it's going in isn't going to help or make it a pleasant learning experience. You should go about learning it in different ways to see what is best. Try listening to as many short natural conversations as possible taking in what they are saying and why the words change instead of just reading about it in text.

Taking a listening approach is more active and it means when you review by looking at grammar rules, something like 'моя сабака' should start to look and sound correct compared with 'мой сабака' which is gramatically wrong, and when you look at those examples you hear in text you will remember which one is right because you would have heard the difference between the genders and it's more likely to sink in.

You said you can read Russian -- try reading as much as you can, there are simplified educational texts for you to start and once you get better you can switch to unadapted materials. The more you read, the more natural these things will become.

Everybody above is right - people do learn in different ways. Unfortunately, I agree with TATY that there is no quick fix. I think if you are having trouble with verbs and their conjugations, just keep drilling on the different conjugations for different verbs. Take maybe 10 or so a day, look up all of their conjugations, and write them out. Then write short sentances using the different conjugations. As others have said, once you start doing this they will become more natural. I have to say that, personally, just memorizing a conjugation table doesn't do much for me. I had to see the verbs in actual text, as well as write them out, before I really had it down.

As for the masculine/fem./neut/ endings - there are some pretty basic rules that will tell you how to determine which classification a noun is from its ending. Of course, there are exceptions, but the rules are pretty universal.

Good luck.

There are a lot of different ways to learn a language but none are easy... even though some may suit your learning style better than others, you're still in for a truckload of work.

There is no quick fix... Remeber "you only get out what you put in."

By the way, what I do is everytime I learn a new word is write it out in all case forms/conjugations twice. I've never been able learn and memorise all the spelling rules etc but I since I've hammered so many examples into my head I kind of feel what the right ending is.

Originally Posted by ang12el

This surrounds Verbs and there conjugation in various tenses.
I understand the basics of looking for the stem of the words but there seem to be so many rules as to if the letter is x ,y etc you use this and not that.

I offer you the radical method. Just speak in Russian without any verbs. It really works.
Look:
Dialog 1 Would you like to drink some beer in the evening? (Future Tense)
- Привет!
- Привет!
- Как у тебя дела?
- Да ничего, нормально. А ты как?
- Тоже ничего. Ты вечером свободен?
- Да, а что?
- Как насчёт холодного пива?
- Где и во сколько?
- В 6, у меня.
- У тебя? Хорошо.

Dialog 2. In the next morning (Past Tense)
- Привет! Как оно вчера?
- Ваще класно. Сейчас бы ещё пива...
- И девок. Что, вчерашнего мало?
- Да голова, блин... А мне ещё на работу...

There are no verbs there and it sounds natural.

Опа, это клево! Если бы только возможно было так говорить по-английски...

There is a difference between mastering and being a "language person."

TATY, what do you mean by a "language person"? Is it a person who is immersed in a language?

Originally Posted by ReDSanchous

There is a difference between mastering and being a "language person."

TATY, what do you mean by a "language person"? Is it a person who is immersed in a language?

A language person is someone who good at learning languages, someone who picks up languages easily. There are some people, I know a few, who no matter how many hours they study Russian every night, just can't progress. They can't even master the basics. On the other hand there are people who can do well in a foreign language with comparably less work. Some people just can't grasp basic grammatical principles. Like they may be able to memorise the case endings, but just don't understand why to use them, and when.

Yeh, the same hold true with everything. There are "math people", "art people", "sports people" etc

Originally Posted by basurero

Yeh, the same hold true with everything. There are "math people", "art people", "sports people" etc

Exactly.

It is true, non-language people can master a foreign language. But there are some people who just can't learn a language, and for them there is little hope.

I'm absolutely not a math person.

I'm absolutely not a math person.

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