У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.
У Наташи есть - accusative?
два маленьких сына - genetive?
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У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.
У Наташи есть - accusative?
два маленьких сына - genetive?
It's nominative since it's the subject of the sentence. In English it would be the other way around:Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
Natasha has two little sons, but if you literally translate this sentence it would be something like this:
Two little sons there are by Natasha.
Thanks for the reply, but am not clear about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
If it is nominative, then should it be:
У Наташа есть два маленькие сыны?
I know I've read this before but why is маленьких in genitive?
The statement is taken from exercise 10/6 of the New Penguin Russian Course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
Both 'Natasha' and 'sons' are in genitive, imho. :roll:
Sorry to say, but I am just as confused about the cases of the statement as I was before asking. :?:
I understand why Natasha is in Genitive. I don't get...Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
y наташи есть два маленькие сыны ?
or at least Маленьких сынов ?
The first one (y наташи есть два маленькие сыны) is wrong.Quote:
I understand why Natasha is in Genitive. I don't get...
y наташи есть два маленькие сыны ?
or at least Маленьких сынов ?
"Сынов" (as plural) sounds bad, I'd advise to use "сыновей", which needs another form of numeral "two" - "двое".
So (another) grammatically correct phrase is:
У Наташи двое маленьких сыновей.
Believe me, it can be confusing for native speakers as well. They use the correct case intuitively,but to explain it (or even determine what case it is) is another matter. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
There're a lot of rules conserning the numerals declension (or declension of 'numeral+noun' pairs).
But I think, I found the rule you need:
http://www.lingvotech.com/zelchislitQuote:
6. При сочетании с числительными два, три, четыре имена существительные получают форму родительного падежа единственного числа (два стола, три двери), а при сочетании с числительными пять, шесть и др. существительные получают форму родительного падежа множественного числа (пять столов, шесть дверей).
I.e. in this case the numeral ("two", which is in nominative, as far as I can tell) controls the associated noun's case ("sons"), turning it into genitive, according to the rule above. Adjective "little" just passively adopts the 'sons' case (genitive).
Correct me, if I'm wrong, please. :)
That's a consolation. And it's true with other languages too. Most native English speakers can't explain their grammar too.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
The web site you are referring to is too advanced for me at this moment, thank you.
Перечитав эту часть "New Penguin", оказолось что забыл несколько важных правил про употребление "Номеры 2 3 4" с Adjectives and nouns.
Спасибо за мотивацию, Зесочка!
Don't worry, it says the exact same thing is New Penguin book :DQuote:
The web site you are referring to is too advanced for me at this moment, thank you.
The rule in my previous post says that after numerals 2, 3, 4 nouns should be in genitive singular (два сына, три стола, четыре дерева), and after numerals 5, 6, etc. nouns should be in genitive plural (пять сыновей, шесть столов, семь деревьев).Quote:
Originally Posted by tocha
Try to find in English any source that explains the declension of numerals. Basically after numerals the corresponding noun adopts genitive case. There are also a bunch of additional rules and exceptions, but your sentence is a simple example.
Всегда пожалуйста. ;)Quote:
Спасибо за мотивацию, Зесочка!
I understand that part about numbers well, as it was explained quite clearly in the New Penguin. However I am still not sure about the cases in the subject question:Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.
In the first part of the sentence, "У Наташи есть", Ramil said it is nominative, and it should be so because that's the subject. But then why "Наташи" and not "Наташа"?
два маленьких сына - genetive?
I am ok with this part.
I'm not sure it's a subject. Looks like an object to me. I see it this way (again, please, correct me, if anybody has a better and correct-er explaination :)):Quote:
Ramil said it is nominative, and it should be so because that's the subject.
Два маленьких сына есть у Наташи.
(кто?)Два маленьких сына - a subject (note, that "два" is in nominative, "маленьких сына" is in genitive only because numeral declension interfers).
(что делают?) есть - a predicate
у Наташи - an (indirect) object
Anyway, У + noun = genitive:
Он стоял у дерева.
У него красивые глаза.
Она живет у родителей.
Наташа имеет два маленьких сына - Natasha is nom.
У Наташи есть два маленьких сына - Natasha is gen.
I don't know, why. :roll: Maybe, because it's possession?
(Russian native speakers usually make simple question check:
(у) кого/чего? - У Наташи -> gen.*
but for RSL learners it probably won't work :))
*
Именительный Кто? Что?
Родительный Кого? Чего?
Дательный Кому? Чему?
Винительный Кого? Что?
Творительный Кем? Чем?
Предложный О ком? О чём?
Thanks it is clearer now. However your point about:
Два маленьких сына - a subject
I think this is not correct, not in the subject sentence.
Er... What's a subject sentence?Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
Anyway, I'm 99% sure "У Наташи" is indirect object, so I don't see any other candidate for a subject, except of "sons".
The subject sentence:Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
У Наташи есть два маленьких сына. Natasha has two small sons. From New Penguin Ex. 10/6 #18.
I think Наташа is the subject. However, because of 'у' as in 'У Наташи' the ending has to conform to the genetive case. Nevertheless it is still the subject. If this is not the case, then I am one very confused student. :evil:
У Наташи есть два маленьких сына =
There are two little sons by Natasha (at Natasha's place).
У Наташи = ~by Natasha, at Natasha's place
есть = there are
два маленьких сына = two little sons
We don't say "I have, Natasha has", etc. We say "у меня есть, у Наташи есть..." etc.
"I has a car". We say: At me (at my place) there is a car (У меня есть машина).
They are not "at her place". :) It means she's their mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Former is обстоятельство места. Latter is дополнение (вроде бы). Both are expressed with the preposition "y" in Russian, but have different meaning.
PS. Ok, I reread Olya's post and now I see thet it was some kind of creative explanation. Hmm... An overstretch, maybe, but if it helps... :)
I'm still wating for TATY or Chaika. I think, they can explain it better in English. They are good in grammar.
Thanks Оля and gRomoZeka. I am having a bad headache now, need to take a break from all this grammar. Will attempt again when my head clears.
У Наташи follows the pattern of у меня - у него - у неёQuote:
Originally Posted by tohca
= Natasha has, I have - he has - she has
Literally the grammar form is "By / ( belonging to ) Natasha " - there is/are .
Y takes the genative case, this is why Natasha is ended with ee. Her sons are the subject of the sentence. ....They to her have.
For the rest the rule is after 1234 always use genative singular, not plural (сыновей is gen.pl ) for the noun, but use gen plural for the adjective.
Surely there must be some better grammar books ou there - Does anybody have any recommendations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
У Наташи есть два маленких сына.
У Наташи = by / at Natasha.
У always takes the genitive case, it's a rule.
есть = is
Natasha is not the subject of the sentence, as grammatically she is not doing anything. She has nothing to do with the verb.
Remember in Russian, you don't say "Natasha has two small sons", you say "By Natasha there are two small sons". The construction is passive, i.e. there isn't an object of the sentence so nothing can be in the accusative case.
In Russian word order is free, so just because два маленких сына comes at the end of the sentence, it doesn't mean it's the object.
два маленьких сына is in the subject of the sentence.
У Наташи (by Natasha) есть (there are ) два маленких сына (two small sons).
два, три, четыре are followed by the genitive singular of nouns, and the genitive plural of adjectives. This is a rule, learn it, don't question it.
Два красивых (gen. plu.) мужчины (gen. sig.)
Три новых (gen. plu.) магазина (gen. sig.)
The semantic subject is not necessarily the same as the grammatical subject.
У Наташи два сына.
By Natasha [are] two son.
Notice that there is no verb in this sentence, or rather it is expressed as a null.
Do you remember the old 50s song Bei mir bist du sheyn? Same thing, but in Yiddish. By me are you great!
The numerals 2, 3, 4 have peculiarities because they used to be used with the dual number. Yes, you heard me right, Russian used to have singular, plural, and dual! all with the standard mishmash of endings. Besides the fact that we now have the gen. sg. after 2,3,4 and the gen.pl. after 5 on up, this old dual explains why you have the odd plurals like очи, глаза, where you might expect *ока and *глазы. And then there's the real remnants of двое, трое, четверо etc. instead of два, три, четыре. That is a set of words you will learn in fourth-year Russian class.
HTH. and would that be Надеюсь, что помог НЧП?
English also had the dual number.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
двести
Наташа is not the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
The subject of the clause is the person/thing doing the action of the verb.
The verb here is есть = to be.
Есть does not refer to Natasha, it refers to the two small sons.
It might help you to understand if we put the sentence in the Subject Verb order:
Два маленьких сына есть у Наташи.
Two small sons are by Natasha.
Mandy, please see:
http://learning-russian.gramota.ru/book ... ?part4.htm
and some interesting stuff about language, in Russian though...
http://zabaznov.ru/rusyaz.html
Спасибо, мои друзей, теперь яснее.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
It's grammatically correct, but sounds strange... I'd say "двое красивых мужчин".Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Друзья мои (as an address) is better here.Quote:
Originally Posted by tohca
There are some rules concerning the use of "собирательные числительные" ("двое", "трое", "четверо", etc.). You can read them here or at greater length here, at the end of the page (sorry, it's in Russian).Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
For example, you may find out there that using these numerals with nouns "люди", "дети", "ребята", "лица" ("persons") is a must, and using them with "мужчины" is a stylistically prefered variant.
Just out of interest, can you explain what a dual number is ? ... Obviously not singular and not plural or is it both at the same time? I know it's probably not that relevant to today's Russian.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
Между прочим, спосибо, что Оlga дала итернетсайты р яыка
It's plural, but for a denotation objects which are two in number (ears, eyes, knees...).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandy
Counting I (шагА, рядА, часА, шарА) - used for amounts two, three, four, twenty-two, twenty-three, etc. Similar to Genitive Singular (шАга, рЯда, чАса, шАра) except for the accented syllable in several common words.(c)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandy
For those using The New Penguin Russian Course, you'll find information about the collective numerals in Section 22.10.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
BTW, what font is that first website using? It came up completely garbled, like I see sometimes if I try to load a page with Chinese characters, but this is the first time I've ever gotten that from a Russian site.
Hm, try changing encoding in your browser... This site uses standard Cyrillic Windows-1251.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs
No, it's dual, as in when you are talking about two things. The dual had its own endings that were not the same as the singular or the plural. For example, here are four words, for type, horse, year, and sea,
Nom./Acc./Vocative рода, коня, лѣтѣ, мори
Gen./Locative роду, коню, лѣту, морю
Dat./Instr. родома, конема, лѣтома, морема
From Wiki.
The seas are drying up.
If you are talking about several seas you would say моря, but if you meant only two you would say мори.
Aren't you glad you don't have to memorize a whole nother set of endings (adjectives and verbs had endings for the dual as well).
The dual is a common IndoEuropean grammatical feature found in all IE languages, at least in their older forms -- I don't know whether it is still alive anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised. My Serbocroatian and Bulgarian is failing me here.
Slovenian is the only Slavic language that retains a full dual number.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
Remnants of the dual number exist in Ukrainian more than Russian. E.g.очима is the instrumental plural of eyes (nom. sig. око), [the normal, regular instrumental plural ending is -ами, like in Russian] which is similar to the:
Dat./Instr. родома, конема, лѣтома, морема chaika posted.
Also, I sort of mentioned this before, in Russian:
сто
двести (две сти) - сти was the dual number of сто.
триста - ста is the genitive singular of сто.
пятьсот - сот is the genitive plural of сто.