Larches, conifers, deciduous

These two sentences express very similar ideas. I am told that the second sentence is more likely to be the way a native Russian speaker would phrase the idea. I'm thinking that larches are more likely to be perceived as TYPICAL conifers in Russia and so the idea of a conifer shedding its needles probably seems normal from a Russian perspective. Whereas in the USA pines are the prototypical conifer and it seems like an unusual exception for conifers to shed their needles. So, my guess is that both sentences express reasonable propositions, but that assumptions are hidden in the word choice which reflect cultural expectations. Am I right and, BTW, are there any better or more likely ways of phrasing the basic idea?

Хотя хвойное дерево, лиственницы лиственные.

(Although a conifer, larches are deciduous.)


Лиственница это хвойное дерево, ежегодно сбрасывающее хвою.
(Larches are conifers, annually shedding their needles.)

"Лиственная порода" and "хвойная порода" are antonims, so a specie can't be both.
"Лиственница - это хвойное дерево" - correct
"Лиственница - это лиственное дерево" - incorrect

That means, the first phrase has logical conflict. Sentence "Хотя хвойное дерево" is built incorrectly - it has no subject.

The second sentence is ok.

Actually conifer shedding its needles doesn't seem normal from Russian perspective, we usually consider conifer as an evergreen tree. And a larch is not that popular in our culture. If you ask russians "Please, name a conifer that first comes to your mind", spruce would probably win, pine would be second and larch would be third at best.

Doesn't Лиственная порода have two meanings:
1) Hardwood
2) Deciduous (not evergreen)

Larches are rule breakers in that they are conifers and yet they are deciduous. My understanding is that larches are the most common tree east of the Ural Range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobert

Doesn't Лиственная порода have two meanings:
1) Hardwood
2) Deciduous (not evergreen)

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No.

Hardwood - дерево лиственной породы
Decidious - листопадное дерево (i've never heard of such word, but it certanly exists).

You can probably say "Лиственница — это хвойное, но при этом листопадное дерево".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobert

Larches are rule breakers in that they are conifers and yet they are deciduous. My understanding is that larches are the most common tree east of the Ural Range.

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Well, I can't speak for people in Urals, but in Moscow region it seems to me that people aren't much into larches) Probably this tree doesn't have enough cultural impact. I mean everyone knows spruce - new year tree, enough said. And pine is a beautiful tall tree with unique profile, carvel pines are famous, pine forests are very distingushable, and the smell, and thus. And what about larch? It's not evergreen, huh.

That's my theory)

Hello bobert,

Good question. I think you've encountered a case where the meanings in the two languages overlap just partially, which is often the case.

1) Hardwood - implies wood that people use for different purposes, right? So it's safe to translate it as древесина твёрдых пород, твёрдая древесина and the like. It happens that hardwood is MOSTLY provided by non-conifer trees, so the Russian dictionaries say it can be древесина лиственных пород. But it's more logical to say твёрдая древесина, etc. (i.e. the English term is technically more correct). BTHWAY the same applies to softwood.

2) Conifer - comes from Latin and it has the root 'cone' in it. So strictly speaking it's a tree that has cones. Again in Russian the traditional equivalent is хвойные деревья, деревья хвойных пород, etc. One can't say this is the exact equivalent. It just happens MOST of the conifers (trees with cones) have needles (хвоя). So the Russian and English notions do not overlap here.

3) Decidious - from Latin 'dēcidere' to fall down (acc. to Collins dictionary I often use). Strictly speaking, it says nothing of whether it should be leaves or needles (there can be decidious antlers of a deer actually, right?). Due to the fact that most decidious trees have leaves (and are not conifers) in Russian the words лиственные деревья, деревья лиственных пород came to be used. But it's not the exact equivalent of 'decidious'. Again the English word is technically more correct here.

So your phrasing Лиственница -- это хвойное дерево, ежегодно сбрасывающее хвою. - sounds good in Russian I think and expesses the correct idea which corresponds to Although a conifer, larches are deciduous.

Now as for the cultural reference that larches are common and ubiquitous in Russia. It may be true in terms of quantity and areas that larches occupy to the east of the Urals and in Siberia (e.g. large taiga forests). At the same time not so many people live there (taiga is uninhabited forest area). So not so many people have actually seen a larch around because in Russia the European part is most densly populated and we don't find many larches here (at least people can't easily spot a larch here I suppose unless they have a basic knowledge of basic forestry).

Basically what I was trying to say by the translation examples is that we may use different words in different languages for the same idea and these words are very often not 100% equivalents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexsms

Due to the fact that most decidious trees have leaves (and are not conifers) in Russian the words лиственные деревья, деревья лиственных пород came to be used. But it's not the exact equivalent of 'decidious'. Again the English word is technically more correct here.

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There's a word "листопадный" in Russian. I've found it searching for antonim to "вечнозеленый".

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Originally Posted by Suobig

There's a word "листопадный" in Russian.

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Yes, I also found it. It implies that у дерева опадают листья.

In case with лиственница (larch) - опадает хвоя.

So I suggested bobert's version - Лиственница это хвойное дерево, ежегодно сбрасывающее хвою. was good

Or Лиственница хвойное дерево, которое осенью сбрасывает хвою (to be more exact).
The idea is that it is a 'rule breaker' to quote Mr bobert.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexsms

Yes, I also found it. It implies that у дерева опадают листья.

In case with лиственница (larch) - опадает хвоя.

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Quote:

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ЛИСТВЕННИЦА
(Larix), род листопадных растений сем. сосновых. <...>

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ЛИСТВЕННИЦА