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How about creating a wiki for common words?
In a couple of recent threads the list of 1000 most common words in Russian on Master Russian has been mentioned. This made me think about creating a wiki version of the list (actually the 5000 words list compiled by the same source as the Master Russian one). I would like to set something like this up, but of course I'd need a bit of help from you.
I am thinking of a wiki where each word from the list has its own page, and speakers of Russian can add translations, examples, grammatical hints (such as 'this verb takes objects in dative case'), and speakers of other languages can provide translations in their own language and possibly additional hints for Russian-speaking learners of said languages.
For easy off-line reference it would be possible to offer PDF or spreadsheet files with just word / translation pairs for the various languages.
What other features would you like to see? Would you be interested in contributing?
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
As I mentioned before, I'll help in any way I can. Specifically, I can edit anything written in English. If Russian natives will be providing translations and helpful tips about each word, I can edit those. Or, if you need something written in English explaining the site, a section about learning these words for English-speakers, etc., I'd be happy to help out. Let me know what I can do, and I'll think of other things to add.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
In a couple of recent threads the list of 1000 most common words in Russian on Master Russian has been mentioned. This made me think about creating a wiki version of the list (actually the 5000 words list compiled by the same source as the Master Russian one). I would like to set something like this up, but of course I'd need a bit of help from you.
I am thinking of a wiki where each word from the list has its own page, and speakers of Russian can add translations, examples, grammatical hints (such as 'this verb takes objects in dative case'), and speakers of other languages can provide translations in their own language and possibly additional hints for Russian-speaking learners of said languages.
For easy off-line reference it would be possible to offer PDF or spreadsheet files with just word / translation pairs for the various languages.
What other features would you like to see? Would you be interested in contributing?
Robin
Have you checked out Wiktionary? There are plenty of holes, but there's already a decent amount of Russian on the English version of it. There are definitely some extra features that could be added with an exclusively Russian-English wiki, but I wanted to make sure that you are aware of Wiktionary to save you some work if you decide that it's adequate for what you envision.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I'm not thinking of an exclusive Russian / English wiki but one centered on these 5000 Russian words, with translations into any language we can muster. The trouble with wiktionary etc. is that you never know how widely used a given word is. And books with "basic vocabulary" usually concern themselves with typical tourist vocabulary and less with words you may actually encounter in written language. This list of 5000 words seems to have been compiled from a diverse range of written texts. It could act as a starting point for learners trying to get a widespread knowledge of useful words. More a tool for actively learning vocabulary, rather than another dictionary.
The original idea was just to create a spreadsheet with a line for each word, and a column for each language we find someone for to manage. It doesn't have to be a wiki, that was just a suggestion.
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
That's a good idea. We already feature example sentences for a new word from the list every week day (Word of the Day).
If anybody would like to participate, we have simple tools for you to enter example sentences for new words.
However, we always double-check the examples to assure accuracy and we mention you in the credits.
If you insist on wiki, we can help as much as we can and set up one on MasterRussian.org
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Do you mean something like a Swadesh list?
By the way the number of 5000 looks too big. If a person starts learning a language with "mandatory" 5000 words it will make learning any language as hard as Chinese (it is supposed that for being not bad in Chinese you need to know "only" 2000 hieroglyphs :) ) .
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Swadesh list is different from the frequency lists. It has only 207 words maximum.
And it serves a different purpose--to compare several languages by their basic vocabulary.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I don't insist on a wiki at all. This was triggered by the thread in which kybarry asked for a printable version of the list. I pulled the 5000 words list from the site you are linking to underneath the list on masterrussian.com, and made a spreadsheet of the list. What's missing are translations. :) We could just as well collaborate on such a spreadsheet or in fact anything else to do with it.
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I have spreadsheet with 500 top nouns by frequency. Has translations in Eng. I am using for case/agreement exercises. If you want where do I put it? Also am working on a verb list, and have adjective spreadsheet for agreement exercises. Same workbook.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Let's first see where this is going. :) If you have a different source for your 500 nouns than where my 5000 words come from, then it would mean adding them to the 5000 word spreadsheet by hand. If it is the same it could be as easy as copy and paste.
You can always send me the file by PM to robinpfeifer -at- web.de and I can find out whether I can integrate it.
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
What is about ready-for-use books like that?
http://www.flibusta.net/b/130935
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
But if we just set up a wiki, then it's up to us to enter the words...
We can do it as and when we feel inspired.. Russian speakers can use the wiki too, in the other direction. Perhaps it would be possible to bulk upload certain types of files into the wiki, and the wiki can have sections for different types of grammar, phrases or words.
User generated content is definitely the way to go....
I quite like the wiki idea but how do you get the software/server up and running; I mean, where do you put it on?
Robin you work in IT right? If we were to do this, what would be the easiest way?
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I can install wiki software.
Another option is to use Google Docs. You can have many people edit the same document there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7y7NafWXeM
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
But if we just set up a wiki, then it's up to us to enter the words...
We can do it as and when we feel inspired.. Russian speakers can use the wiki too, in the other direction. Perhaps it would be possible to bulk upload certain types of files into the wiki, and the wiki can have sections for different types of grammar, phrases or words.
User generated content is definitely the way to go....
I quite like the wiki idea but how do you get the software/server up and running; I mean, where do you put it on?
Robin you work in IT right? If we were to do this, what would be the easiest way?
I would be interesting in helping with a wiki, too. I see one of the greatest advantages of a English-Russian wiki on this site is that there will be plenty of space for detailed usage notes, which might be more difficult to do in Google Docs.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
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Originally Posted by Johanna
Robin you work in IT right? If we were to do this, what would be the easiest way?[/b]
I looked into wikihost.org and set up a free wiki there for testing, but it could just as well be an extension of masterrussian.net on their servers. Google Docs is also a valid option. The question is what we want to do with it. We could go beyond the 5000 words list idea and make it a general wiki listing information on Russian. We should gather ideas about what we want to achieve, and then look at the advantages and disadvantages of each possible solution. If it is going to be an addition to masterrussian.net and *.com we should think about what would be useful and not just a reduplication of what is already there. I have to confess I rarely ever visit the *.com page... :oops:
I have contacted the originator of the word list, and he sent me a link to a newer, and as he says more representative list. The lists are under Creative Commons licenses and may be used for any purpose, with proper attribution.
@ Почемучка: you would be interested. But you find it interesting. It is interesting, you are interested.
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
@ Почемучка: you would be interested. But you find it interesting. It is interesting, you are interested.
:shock:
That was just a typo -- I'm a native speaker! Well, that's embarrassing. Having not lived in an English-speaking country in quite some time, I find that I make a lot more random mistakes than I used to, especially if I am not paying full attention to what I am writing. I guess my brain has a finite amount of language ability!
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Reduplication of content from .com wouldn't make much sense as it's already there.
More "representative" probably means that the author used a larger set of texts to derive the list. I expect the new list to change very little. The newer list would basically be the same.
I agree with bitpicker that we should first decide what we want to achieve. A list of 5000 Russian words with examples?
bitpicker: what is a wiki extension you mentioned?
I can install a wiki on a subdomain like wiki.masterrussian.net or to a new domain like masterrussian.org
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
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Originally Posted by почемучка
That was just a typo -- I'm a native speaker!
Sorry for that... ;) I thought you were a native speaker, but then I checked the location underneath your avatar and thought maybe I was wrong... ;)
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
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Originally Posted by MasterAdmin
what is a wiki extension you mentioned?
I did not mean 'wiki extension' but a wiki as an extension to masterrussian.net as opposed to something independent, which was what I had in mind initially.
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
It will be somewhat independent because wiki is a separate software from the forum. I can try and merge it into the forum as much as possible but it will be different from the forum itself. Any other ideas?
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Nice!
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Originally Posted by MasterAdmin
Any other ideas?
Not sure if it's best to start with something very basic, or be ambitious and shoot for something really special... Anyway -- perhaps someone likes some ideas among these...
Make it unique online by focusing on things that are relevant for learners, such as:
- pairs of verbs i.e работать - поработать and other similar pairings, tbd.
[/*:m:333panru] - Group the words by word class and area of usage: Colours, body parts, countries...
[/*:m:333panru] - Indicate stress on all words.
[/*:m:333panru] - Allow uploading pictures for words: just because visual and nice....
[/*:m:333panru] - Consider possibility for uploading recordings Release 2... (The Rhinospike recording site actually uses storage off Amazon for their files. I believe it may be free?!)
[/*:m:333panru] - Make sure the project is fully bilingual; equally useful for Russians learning English... Would be nice if both English speakers and Russian speakers could contribute.
[/*:m:333panru] - SEO optimize it so this site gets the traffic and unique visitors it deserves. Google loves wikis and gives sites higher ratings the minute it realises there is a wiki on the site. [/*:m:333panru]
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Synonym and other topics about word choice, for current usage, as opposed to archaic. Like in some of the threads we see. What the better word choices are when there are synonyms.
Common idiomatic phrases requiring specific agreements/cases etc.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I think we should get something simple up as soon as possible, and just add on from there. Having the list of words with a link, eventually, containing a recording, common phrases and example sentences using the word would be ideal. Also, I agree that something indicating the stress would be great, but I wouldn't expect it, as it seems it would take a lot of manual work.
With constant updates, there's no reason to stop at 5000 either. Adding quizzes for the words would be a cool feature as well. And I think sections with music and movies, possibly just embedded youtube videos, would be fun. We can take the threads about music, movies, and cartoons and put those into more succinct and usable sections on the wiki. Going through individual threads can be a hassle.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
This is the link to the newer list of words I have been given: http://corpus.leeds.ac.uk/serge/frqlist/
It's for 50.000 words... ;)
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Guys, I've installed the wiki. You can access it here.
http://masterrussian.net/wiki/Main_Page
Please register an account and confirm your email to be able to edit pages.
Otherwise we'll be getting a lot of spam from bots.
You can change the wiki skin from your profile (make it look like the classic wiki if you want).
I hope everything is working all right. If not, let me know and I'll fix the errors.
:flazhok:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
You really want to confuse us :D
Those lists group words by special terms and decades. I think we just need most common and contemporary for now.
Maybe we need to create a wiki page to discuss the goals and direction. Or we could discuss it here.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Look at the bold link, it's just the list ordered by frequency.
Or right here: http://corpus.leeds.ac.uk/serge/frqlist ... n.num.html
Of course we don't have to use all the 50.000 words... :)
Robin
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
If we can get it started, I have some ideas how to attract more contributors. I will place a link to the wiki in the forum header and other places on the site. Hopefully, we'll have it growing. There are many examples on wikipedia already but we can make it more unique and useful for learners, with exercises and pictures. And the examples will be provided by native Russians who visit this forum.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
So, how do we get the ball rolling? What kind of standard format would be ideal for each word page?
Does anybody know how to make a template?
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Before building a template(s) we need to decide on page structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Template
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Looks like it was just a whim. Now that wiki is there the idea is abandoned.
If so, I will just remove this thread.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I'm still interested. I'm not sure how to get things started, though. Furthermore, my level of Russian is such that I shouldn't be a central figure. However, if the interest is a tepid as it seems to be, perhaps we shouldn't waste our time.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I agree. My language level is not sufficiently advanced to provide real insight into developing a wiki. (I'll keep working on my spread sheet of nouns adjectives verbs pronouns, idioms, etc. Filling it up with declensions, agreements, models.)
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Okay, I created something. I picked "fly" because it is a verb and a noun, both with multiple meanings. Let's use the page to experiment with the formatting. What more can be added and what is unnecessary? The format that I threw together looks like crap, so if somebody knows how to make it prettier, that would be nice. :-)
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Looks good for beginning.
I think it's better to place Noun/Verb/Other part of speech under Meaning.
Usage notes should have Example sentences somewhere nearby.
How about proverbs, idioms, set expressions, etc?
Just my thoughts...
I edited муха to reflect that http://masterrussian.net/wiki/%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B0
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAdmin
Looks good for beginning.
I think it's better to place Noun/Verb/Other part of speech under Meaning.
Usage notes should have Example sentences somewhere nearby.
How about proverbs, idioms, set expressions, etc?
Just my thoughts...
I edited муха to reflect that
http://masterrussian.net/wiki/%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B0
Great, that already looks a little better!
There's no reason why we can't create pages for proverbs and idioms. In fact, those will be particularly useful, especially if we maintain a "related words/expressions" list on the page of root words.
Now, one of the first orders of business is to create a standard box for noun declension patterns and for verb declension patterns. Does anybody out there have any Wiki skills? I'm not sure how to create templates.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I'll try to create some templates. They are not as simple as I thought.
Noun declension would have lots of templates!
Maybe we could copy them from wiktionary. Or enter declensions manually without declension templates. The only template would be the declension table template.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAdmin
Maybe we could copy them from wiktionary. Or enter declensions manually without declension templates. The only template would be the declension table template.
That wouldn't be the most efficient way, but I suppose it would be excellent practice for non-native speakers!
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
Haha, trying to figure out the parameters in the template would be a challenge even for a native speaker!
Just look at this example of template use to decline муха. You have to know the declension type, gender, part of speech, stem, and other things:
{{сущ ru f a 3a|основа=му́х}}
And this is only for a noun. How about verbs?
So I think the manual entry would be easier, at least in the beginning until we develop a complete set of templates.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
What about the way that Морфолгический анализ is arranged? Could this be used? Морфолгический анализ has accents, example: гру'ша. (A problem with Морфолгический анализ is that ё is different, (e", in their tables). To enter ё, use e.)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/mor...?flags=kndnnnn
Some words have extensive tables. Example, enter собираться
More extensive tables also for случай as example.
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Re: How about creating a wiki for common words?
I'm glad this is coming to fruition. Pardon my wiki ignorance, but how can I use the template you guys made, and start contributing?
"The strip of fabric that hides the zipper on a pair of pants or shorts. "
This is from the Wiki under fly. This may be the technical definition, but we also use it for the zipper itself. "Hey, your fly is down," means the zipper is down.
I really support putting up idioms proverbs and common phrases. To me, those are some of the most important, and fun, parts of learning the language. Putting synonyms up there would certainly be useful, I think. For fly, you put related terms, but adding words like soar, and glide(although this is different), would be good. I didn't want to try and edit these things until I knew what I was doing; I didn't want to screw anything up. Thanks for getting the ball rolling guys!