Getting stressed

I am determined to understand how to conjugate Russian nouns. I've learned all the endings. for all the cases, singular and plural, for all three genders. I've learned the spelling rules. I've learned about hard stem endings and soft stem endings. And yet I'm still confused! :oops: Why? Because of all the stress patterns! Stem stress, end stress, mobile stress. My Russian text books, when they introduce a new noun, don't think it necessary to mention what happens to the stress in any case but the nominative.

Do I need to look up every new word in my dictionary (which helpfully gives stress patterns) or am I getting stressed over something which isn't really important?:lol:

You Russian learners are heroes.

Although there are hints and tendencies for placement of stress in Russian words, each one must be investigated and memorized. I don't know who decides where the stress will fall in new words.

If you can find it, there's a very helpful book by V. Klepko on this subject: A Practical Handbook on Stress in Russian

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Originally Posted by rainbowworrier

...or am I getting stressed over something which isn't really important?:lol:

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Just a quick question: What does Mr. Worrier think on the issue? :D

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Originally Posted by rainbowworrier

I am determined to understand how to conjugate Russian nouns. I've learned all the endings. for all the cases, singular and plural, for all three genders. I've learned the spelling rules. I've learned about hard stem endings and soft stem endings. And yet I'm still confused! :oops: Why? Because of all the stress patterns! Stem stress, end stress, mobile stress. My Russian text books, when they introduce a new noun, don't think it necessary to mention what happens to the stress in any case but the nominative.

Do I need to look up every new word in my dictionary (which helpfully gives stress patterns) or am I getting stressed over something which isn't really important?:lol:

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Just to clarify. You conjugate verbs, and decline nouns.

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Originally Posted by rainbowworrier

Do I need to look up every new word in my dictionary (which helpfully gives stress patterns) or am I getting stressed over something which isn't really important?:lol:

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A real lifesaver in this regard is an Orthographic Dictionary of Russian. I think every Russian learner should have one.

If you've got the Internet, though, you can get by just using Russian reference websites like gramota.ru. You just rype in the root word and it gives you everything you need, including accents in various cases/numbers.

Check it out, it's brilliant! Just type your word in the yellow box.
http://www.gramota.ru/

Don't worry too much about it! Even advanced learners make mistakes sometimes, but it becomes a lot easier with time. This is because of exposure and getting better at recognizing word roots. Not even all Russians agree about word stress :)

I had a dictionary by R.I. Avanesov that accompanied me through grad school. I think it was maybe this one http://www.libex.ru/detail/book76448.html .

It has all the unusual stresses marked. Pretty technical, as I recall it does not have any meanings, just the stress patterns. I wrote a dissertation on the stress patterns in the verb (in the dialects), so I think I have that part down now. Next for the nouns.

Anyway, good luck, keep on truckin!

Wow! Thanks MK for reminding me of that site. It even has the correct stress for one of my favorite verbs.

Thanks for all your answers, and sorry for the delay in replying, I had some problems with my account :roll: but we're all better now.

So I have to learn each noun with its stress pattern, it seems. Well, it's no worse than all those irregular spellings in English':)'.

What I don't understand is, why do none of my Teach Yourself Russian books tell you this? They seem to assume that it's not necessary for a learner to understand about stress patterns. Maybe they think it's too complicated for a beginner, and leave it for a more advamced book? Or maybe it's one of those things, like writing joined-up Russian, that they assume that your teacher will explain. Good thing I have all of you to act as my teacher! :lol:

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Originally Posted by rainbowworrier

Thanks for all your answers, and sorry for the delay in replying, I had some problems with my account :roll: but we're all better now.

So I have to learn each noun with its stress pattern, it seems. Well, it's no worse than all those irregular spellings in English':)'.

What I don't understand is, why do none of my Teach Yourself Russian books tell you this? They seem to assume that it's not necessary for a learner to understand about stress patterns. Maybe they think it's too complicated for a beginner, and leave it for a more advamced book? Or maybe it's one of those things, like writing joined-up Russian, that they assume that your teacher will explain. Good thing I have all of you to act as my teacher! :lol:

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No, don't try to memorize them. It's boring and tedious. The only way, I think, of remembering things like that is reading and listening practice. After you'd read through several books (just pick some fiction or classics) in Russian it would come to you. (Just the same matter as it had been in my case). You read what a native author wrote and you stumble upon all these newances and your brain remembers it automatically plus a context and usage.

Many years ago I took my first English book and began to read. I had to look for the unknown words in a dictionary and since there were many of them the process was slow and boring. Then I decided not to look for the words in a dictionary but to continue reading (aloud if it were possible). Some time later, I was amazed about how many words I'd learnt without even knowing about it. Since I had not looked for a word but tried to guess its meaning from the context and ethymology my thinking wasn't clouded by the strict and formal way the meaning is usually explained in dictionaries. I just knew it. Some time later, with amazement, I discovered that when I begin to speak English my thoughts also began flowing in English, though I thought I would never be thinking in any other language than Russian. It was unnesessary to construct a phrase in Russian and then to translate it - the phrase formed in English right from the beginning.

So, try it. Just watch movies (don't turn on English subtitles - just listen, don't worry if you don't understand something - just go on) or read books or watch Russian TV (even though it's cr@p to my taste). Immerse yourself in the language, make it coming to you from everywhere. Believe me - it's a faster and far more interesting way to learn the language than simply memorizing countless word forms from assorted dictionaries.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

No, don't try to memorize them. It's boring and tedious. The only way, I think, of remembering things like that is reading and listening practice. After you'd read through several books (just pick some fiction or classics) in Russian it would come to you. ...

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I think that to hear the melody of the language (along with the words stress pattern) the best reading or listening would be poetry or songs for that matter. The rhyme of the poems or lyrics will make you to put the stress right. :lol:

М. Лермонтов

ПАРУС

Белеет парус одинокой
В тумане моря голубом!..
Что ищет он в стране далёкой?
Что кинул он в краю родном?..

Играют волны - ветер свищет,
И мачта гнётся и скрыпит...
Увы, - он счастия не ищет
И не от счастия бежит!

Под ним струя светлей лазури,
Над ним луч солнца золотой...
А он, мятежный, просит бури,
Как будто в бурях есть покой!

1832
____________________________

M. Lermontov

THE SAIL

A lonely sail looms in the distance
Enveloped in the sea's blue haze!..
What does it seek in distant regions?
What did it leave back in its land?..

The waters swell - the wind is fierce,
The mast bends heavily and creaks...
Alas! Its happiness it seeks not,
And not from happiness it flees!

A golden ray shines o'er the canvas,
A limpid current runs beneath...
But it, rebellious, seeks a tempest,
As if in tempests there is peace!

1832
___________________________________

K***

Мы снова встретились с тобой,
Но как мы оба изменились!..
Года унылой чередой
От нас невидимо сокрылись.
Ищу в глазах твоих огня,
Ищу в душе своей волненья.
Ах как тебя, так и меня
Убило жизни тяготенье!..

1829
__________________

To***

We met each other once again,
But how much we've changed with years!..
As they passed joylessly away
To hide invisibly forever.
I seek old fire in your eyes;
I search my soul for old passions.
Oh, how you as well as I
Are crippled by this life's oppression!..

1829
__________________________________________


* * *

Расстались мы, но твой портрет
Я на груди моей храню:
Как бледный призрак прошлых лет,
Он душу радует мою.

И, новым преданный страстям,
Я разлюбить его не мог:
Так храм оставленный - всё храм,
Кумир поверженный - всё бог!

1837
__________________

We've parted, but I still retain
Your portrait resting on my breast:
It makes me happy once again
As a pale ghost of the past.

Enslaved by newer passions, I
Kept loving it the same; this way
Forsaken shrines keep being shrines,
And fallen gods still make you pray.

1837
__________________________________


А.С. Пушкин

* * *

Я вас любил: любовь ещё, быть может,
В душе моей угасла не совсем;
Но пусть она вас больше не тревожит;
Я не хочу печалить вас ничем.
Я вас любил безмолвно, безнадежно,
То робостью, то ревностью томим;
Я вас любил так искренно, так нежно,
Как дай вам бог любимой быть другим.

1829
_____________________

A. Pushkin

* * *

I loved you once: my soul may still house
My love that hardly burning stays alive;
But heed it not, I don't want to arouse
Your worries and cause sadness in your life.
I loved you once, without hope, mutely,
By timidness and jealousy seized then;
I loved you so fondly, so truly,
As may God grant you to be loved again.

1829
__________________________________________

Translated by Yevgeniy Sokolovskiy.

________________________________________________

Если жизнь тебя обманет,
Не печалься, не сердись!
В день уныния смирись:
День веселья, верь, настанет.
_____________________________

If perhaps life should deceive you
Be not gloomy, be not riled!
To sad days be reconciled;
Days of gladness, trust, are near you.

Перевод - Джулиан Лоуэнфелд

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Originally Posted by Lampada

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Originally Posted by Ramil

No, don't try to memorize them. It's boring and tedious. The only way, I think, of remembering things like that is reading and listening practice. After you'd read through several books (just pick some fiction or classics) in Russian it would come to you. ...

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I think that to hear the melody of the language (along with the words stress pattern) the best reading or listening would be poetry or songs for that matter. The rhyme of the poems or lyrics will make you to put the stress right. :lol:

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Not quite so. Pushkin and Lermontov are nice, but you won't meet people speaking the way these wonderful lines were written like. The goal is to put the knowledge of the word forms into your head, not just enjoy the poetry.

Many words in songs and poetry are there just to provide the rhyme so it's a bit too artificial. There are many words that are obsolete or with rare usage and many songs I know (the modern pops mostly) don't hold even a bit of sense. It all goes down to 'I love her/him blah blah blah and she/he doesn't love me back blah blah blah. How sad' :). And so goes another thousand or so variations. It won't harm, I think, but it's better to listen and read dialogues. And it's harder to distinguish the words in a song than in ordinary speech.
Reading a fiction or watching a movie, on the contrary, gives you the context and the usage patterns which are more helpful.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

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Originally Posted by Lampada

I think that to hear the melody of the language (along with the words stress pattern) the best reading or listening would be poetry or songs for that matter. The rhyme of the poems or lyrics will make you to put the stress right. :lol:

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Not quite so. Pushkin and Lermontov are nice, but you won't meet people speaking the way these wonderful lines were written like. The goal is to put the knowledge of the word forms into your head, not just enjoy the poetry.

Many words in songs and poetry are there just to provide the rhyme so it's a bit too artificial. There are many words that are obsolete or with rare usage and many songs I know (the modern pops mostly) don't hold even a bit of sense. It all goes down to 'I love her/him blah blah blah and she/he doesn't love me back blah blah blah. How sad' :). And so goes another thousand or so variations. It won't harm, I think, but it's better to listen and read dialogues. And it's harder to distinguish the words in a song than in ordinary speech.
Reading a fiction or watching a movie, on the contrary, gives you the context and the usage patterns which are more helpful.

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You dismiss poetry as an important and wonderfull tool for studying languages! :lol:

I agree with Lampada, and you can use other poetry, like children's one. Our Marshak and Chukovsky definately help to develop good reading.

I disagree, I think Russians have this great misconception that poetry is an amazing tool for learning Russian. 1. The language in old poetry (Pushkin, Lermontov, etc.) is often archaic. 2. The syntax is usually highly complex and therefore confusing. 3. Most young people don't actually like poetry and find it really boring.

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Originally Posted by TATY

I disagree, I think Russians have this great misconception that poetry is an amazing tool for learning Russian. 1. The language is old poetry (Pushkin, Lermontov, etc.) is often archaic. 2. The syntax is usually highly complex and therefore confusing. 3. Most young people don't actually like poetry and find it really boring.

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That's not true, the poetry of course has archaisms, but it's not totaly and completley archaic, there are a lot of very modern words and expressions in Pushkin, and certain stuff, understood even by little kids in Russia, and they read his stuff, to them when they are still in the kindergarten. And like I said it doesn't always have to be Pushkin etc. It can be also Marshak or Chukovsky.

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Originally Posted by Remyisme

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Originally Posted by TATY

I disagree, I think Russians have this great misconception that poetry is an amazing tool for learning Russian. 1. The language is old poetry (Pushkin, Lermontov, etc.) is often archaic. 2. The syntax is usually highly complex and therefore confusing. 3. Most young people don't actually like poetry and find it really boring.

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That's not true, the poetry of course has archaisms, but it's not totaly and completley archaic, there are a lot of very modern words and expressions in Pushkin, and certain stuff, understood even by little kids in Russia, and they read his stuff, to them when they are still in the kindergarten. And like I said it doesn't always have to be Pushkin etc. It can be also Marshak or Chukovsky.

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Russian kids learning their native tongue is not the same as a foreigner learning Russian. I am not saying poetry is not useful, I'm just saying it's not that useful. I'd say simple short stories, prose is much more useful.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

You dismiss poetry as an important and wonderfull tool for studying languages! :lol:

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No, I'm against the notion that it is the best 'tool'. There *ARE* others that I find far more effective. The poetry is a nice addition to it allowing to 'polish' some rough edges.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

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Originally Posted by Lampada

You dismiss poetry as an important and wonderfull tool for studying languages! :lol:

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No, I'm against the notion that it is the best 'tool'. There *ARE* others that I find far more effective. The poetry is a nice addition to it allowing to 'polish' some rough edges.

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+1

My first year Russian class was in high school. I was 16-17 years old. My teacher, who came from Leningrad, would bring his accordion to class and we would sing Russian songs, for example Подмосковные вечера, И кто его знает. We also had to memorize poems. I still remember some of Krylov's Волк и кот, http://er3ed.qrz.ru/krylov.htm#wolk-i-kot 40 years later.

I can pretty much pick up a book now and know where the accent falls, but there are still words that I would be unsure of.

Wow, Chaika, my full respect to you!

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Originally Posted by chaika

... We also had to memorize poems. I still remember some of Krylov's Волк и кот, http://er3ed.qrz.ru/krylov.htm#wolk-i-kot 40 years later. ...

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Волк и кот
Басня Крылова
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/album_a ... Fnumber=12 Читает Игорь Ильинский

http://www.russiandvd.com/store/album_a ... Fnumber=16 Читает Иван Любезнов