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Thread: The usage of "то"...

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    The usage of "то"...

    то
    pron. that, pronoun used to indicate a specific person or thing


    So, if "то" means "that", and "что" also means "that"... what's the difference between them? Are they interchangeable?

    i.e.

    Я хочу сказать тебе что.....

    Я хочу сказать тебе то...
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    что is conjunction and an interrogative pronoun

    то is а demonstrative pronoun

    Что? - То!
    What? - That!

    the only correct form is Я хочу сказать тебе, что or if you like to рассусоливать, then Я хочу сказать тебе то, что

    in Hebrew что is ma and she-

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    I like the way you form your reply by considering history of conversations

    the only correct form is Я хочу сказать тебе, что or if you like to рассусоливать, then Я хочу сказать тебе то, что
    That doesn't make much sense in English. "I wanna tell you that, that..."

    We got "that" twice, that doesn't seem right.


    Что? - То!
    What? - That!

    Not sure I get it -- if it ends with a question it's a что and otherwise it's то?
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    I like the way you form your reply by considering history of conversations

    That doesn't make much sense in English. "I wanna tell you that, that..."

    We got "that" twice, that doesn't seem right.
    in English of course it doesn't, quite a different language, therefore i'd not advise trying to base your understanding on literal translation

    but in Я хочу сказать тебе, что you only have one that just like in English so if another variant (то, что) confuses you, forget it, it's not that euphonical anyway


    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Not sure I get it -- if it ends with a question it's a что and otherwise it's то?
    i was trying to show that что and то are not one and the same in Russian, although into English they could be translated with just one word that

    here, in Hebrew то, что sounds like ma she-

    ani lo shamati et ma she-hu amar - я не слышал то, что он сказал

    alternatively

    ani lo shamati ma hu amar - я не слышал, что он сказал

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert, but I think English "that" has two different meanings:

    1. this - that => это/этот/эта - то/тот/та
    2. which => что

    When you say something like: "I want to tell you that I like you", that essentially means:

    I want to say a phrase, which would convey the meaning: "I like you". => Я хочу тебе сказать, что ты мне нравишься.

    Alternatively, you could say: "I've been waiting to tell you that for a long time." => Я уже давно хотел тебе об этом сказать.

    So, when you say something like: "Я давно хочу сказать тебе то, что ты уже сам знаешь." that would be a colloquial way of a better equivalent: "Я давно хотел сказать тебе о том, о чём ты уже сам знаешь." and that would mean: "I've been waiting for long to tell you something that you already know."

    Hope it helps.

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    i was trying to show that что and то are not one and the same in Russian, although into English they could be translated with just one word that
    Yes, though I'm still not entirely sure how to differentiate them. I think my problem is the difficulty at grasping "demonstrative case"... in my mind it means "accusative case".. but how do you build a sentence with that? oohhh.....head hurts... ohhh..Russian...почему вы должно быт такый трудный?...
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Yes, though I'm still not entirely sure how to differentiate them. I think my problem is the difficulty at grasping "demonstrative case"... in my mind it means "accusative case".. but how do you build a sentence with that? oohhh.....head hurts... ohhh..Russian...почему вы должно быт такый трудный?...
    i think you confuse things, there's no demonstrative case, it's the pronoun which is demonstrative тот/та/эти/это etc. because they point at objects out there

    so wasn't Hebrew example helpful? i believe it illustrates the idea pretty accurately

    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    I want to say a phrase, which would convey the meaning: "I like you". => Я хочу тебе сказать, что ты мне нравишься.
    as conjunction which is not что, but который

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert, but I think English "that" has two different meanings:

    1. this - that => это/этот/эта - то/тот/та
    2. which => что
    Oh, if that's really the case then "то/тот/та" ought to be way more frequent than "что"...

    Поправьте меня, если я неправа
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    i think you confuse things, there's no demonstrative case, it's the pronoun which is demonstrative тот/та/эти/это etc. because they point at objects out there

    so wasn't Hebrew example helpful? i believe it illustrates the idea pretty accurately



    as conjunction which is not что, but который

    You said that:

    "in Hebrew что is ma and she-"

    What does it leave for то/тот/та?
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Oh, if that's really the case then "то/тот/та" ought to be way more frequent than "что"...

    Поправьте меня, если я неправа
    no, because they're used for different purposes, it's like comparing apples and oranges

    try giving English examples where you think these should be used when translated into Russian


    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    You said that:

    "in Hebrew что is ma and she-"

    What does it leave for то/тот/та?
    they have different purpose, maybe you missed this

    ani lo shamati et ma she-hu amar - я не слышал то, что он сказал

    alternatively

    ani lo shamati ma hu amar - я не слышал, что он сказал


    as demonstrative pronoun то/тот in Hebrew is hahu, та - hahi

    tistakel, hine holechet ha-bahura hahi - смотри, вон идёт та девушка

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    I want to say a phrase, which would convey the meaning: "I like you". => Я хочу тебе сказать, что ты мне нравишься.

    as conjunction which is not что, but который
    Yes, if you want to translate that word for word. All I wanted, was to demonstrate the difference, since Valda was confused how "that" could be used for two different purposes.

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    try giving English examples where you think these should be used when translated into Russian
    I think that I saw him playing ping-pong at the beach -> то
    The Americans used the A-Bomb, which still inflicts people today -> что


    BTW you posted one second after me so there might be a reply you missed (replying to the Hebrew comment)
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Oh, if that's really the case then "то/тот/та" ought to be way more frequent than "что"...

    Поправьте меня, если я неправа
    It rather would be the other way around.
    Try to replace "that" with its ["то"] equivalent "something" and see what you could and could not say.

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    I think that I saw him playing ping-pong at the beach.
    Pick the one which would be closer in meaning:

    I think something I saw him playing ping-pong at the beach.
    I think, which I saw him playing ping-pong at the beach.

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    I think that I saw him playing ping-pong at the beach -> то
    The Americans used the A-Bomb, which still inflicts people today -> что
    Я думаю, что я видела как он играл в теннис на пляже

    Американцы применили атомную бомбу, которая до сих пор вредит людям OR что до сих пор вредит людям (which is not very literal but understandable)


    can you explain on what basis you decide where you're going to put что and where то?

    ____________________________________________

    i think i figured out what your crux is

    in Russian то is used to connect two clauses within one compound sentence only when their relationship is conditional and into English it translates as then or so

    if you go, then i go too - если ты идёшь, то и я иду

    you stay, so i do toо - если ты остаёшься, то и я остаюсь

    here то is interchangeable with тогда which literally means then in English

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    they have different purpose, maybe you missed this

    ani lo shamati et ma she-hu amar - я не слышал то, что он сказал

    alternatively

    ani lo shamati ma hu amar - я не слышал, что он сказал


    as demonstrative pronoun то/тот in Hebrew is hahu, та - hahi

    tistakel, hine holechet ha-bahura hahi - смотри, вон идёт та девушка
    That comment is perfect for my understanding, actually If those are really the definitions of то/та/тот then it's much easier than I thought. English dictionary did a disservice to me then, I needed a Hebrew-Russian dictionary for those!


    Я думаю, что я видела как он играл в теннис на пляже

    Американцы применили атомную бомбу, которая до сих пор вредит людям OR что до сих пор вредит людям (which is not very literal but understandable)


    can you explain on what basis you decide where you're going to put что and where то?
    On the basis of "whether LXNDR says it's correct or not"

    I'm planning to use что for all purposes which just means "that" (in Hebrew "she", "ma")...

    I'm planning to use то just for "that one" (in masculine form) (In Hebrew "hahu"), and та/тот with their genders accordingly

    i think i figured out what your crux is

    in Russian то is used to connect two clauses within one compound sentence only when their relationship is conditional and into English it translates as then or so

    if you go, then i go too - если ты идёшь, то и я иду

    you stay, so i do toо - если ты остаёшься, то и я остаюсь

    here то is interchangeable with тогда which literally means then in English
    Ohh...so то has more definitions!? Yikes!

    Thanks for letting me know! Any more definitions for то I should be aware of?

    ani lo shamati et ma she-hu amar - я не слышал то, что он сказал
    BTW if we translate it word by word....


    ani (Я) lo (не) shamati (слушал) et (что) ma (что) she-hu (то) amar (сказал)... and according to you - я не слышал то, что он сказал


    so if I turn it into math, 2 times что followed by то becomes то, что... little wonder why so many russians are mathematicians and engineers!

    J/K-- I know I am being too literate in my comparison of languages....
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    That comment is perfect for my understanding, actually If those are really the definitions of то/та/тот then it's much easier than I thought. English dictionary did a disservice to me then, I needed a Hebrew-Russian dictionary for those!
    in my time i read to tatters the dictionary of Baruch Podolski, it's two-parted Hebrew-Russian and vice versa, but they're not completely identical in their vocabulary

    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    On the basis of "whether LXNDR says it's correct or not"
    well, sounds good enough for me

    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    I'm planning to use что for all purposes which just means "that" (in Hebrew "she", "ma")...

    I'm planning to use то just for "that one" (in masculine form) (In Hebrew "hahu"), and та/тот with their genders accordingly
    doing so hopefully you'll eventually be able to get to the bottom of this

    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Ohh...so то has more definitions!? Yikes!

    Thanks for letting me know! Any more definitions for то I should be aware of?
    not that i can think of at the moment and more material may just confuse you more


    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    BTW if we translate it word by word....

    ani (Я) lo (не) shamati (слушал) et (что) ma (что) she-hu (то) amar (сказал)... and according to you - я не слышал то, что он сказал

    ani (Я) lo (не) shamati (слышал) et ma (то) she-hu (что он) amar (сказал)

    et isn't a pronoun but a direct object preposition so it's not counted

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    in my time i read to tatters the dictionary of Baruch Podolski, it's two-parted Hebrew-Russian and vice versa, but they're not completely identical in their vocabulary
    Oh, an actual "book" dictionary? People still use that? Eep, that's terrible. I'll stick to my electronics ones if you don't mind



    ani (Я) lo (не) shamati (слышал) et ma (то) she-hu (что он) amar (сказал)

    et isn't a pronoun but a direct object preposition so it's not counted
    Good point.

    Thanks for all the corrections
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Oh, an actual "book" dictionary? People still use that? Eep, that's terrible. I'll stick to my electronics ones if you don't mind
    it was before computers became mobile and portable somewhere in the 19th century

    maybe there's an electronic version of that

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    Please watch the comma. The comma separates two things in each sentence
    Я хочу сказать тебе, что ты мне нравишься -> I want to tell that I like you
    Я хочу сказать тебе то, что говорил вчера -> I want tell you the same thing I told you yesterday. In this sentence "то" is basically shortened form of "это", IMHO

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