Thread: Dative case

I have just started looking at this case with my teacher.

I can identify the changes in these sentences as being dative:

Оля даёт книгу Алуксею - To whom does Оля give the book.

Он идёт к зданию - the presence of K.


These have me stumped:

Собаке хочется играть
Антону хочется отдыхать

I can see the dative changes (e and y) at the end of собаке и Антону.The problem is i dont see a way of identifying these sentences as being in the dative case.

Many thanks in advance for any replies.

Impersonal constructions use dative for the subject. eg. Мне нужно идти.

http://www.auburn.edu/~mitrege/russi...ials/0065.html

Another way to think of it is that the subject of a verb in the infinitive is in the dative. So the subject of отдыхать is Антону. There is a somewhat similar construction in English in sentences like "It is difficult for me to do" - in Russian, the "for me" would be replaced by the dative (though these constructions are much more common in Russian than in English - the хочется construction in English would sound like "It is desired for me to..." which we don't say).

In Russian it's even possible to have a sentence like "мне идти." with just the dative and the verb (it's one of the ways of saying "I need to go").

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

Another way to think of it is that the subject of a verb in the infinitive is in the dative. So the subject of отдыхать is Антону. There is a somewhat similar construction in English in sentences like "It is difficult for me to do" - in Russian, the "for me" would be replaced by the dative (though these constructions are much more common in Russian than in English - the хочется construction in English would sound like "It is desired for me to..." which we don't say).

In Russian it's even possible to have a sentence like "мне идти." with just the dative and the verb (it's one of the ways of saying "I need to go").

Excellent,thanks John.

I think part of the problem i had was that i was reading these examples rather than writing them.I find it a lot easier to understand the construction when i have to think about what i'm going to write.

@Seraph - Thanks for the example and the link.I will have a look at that tomorrow.

All the best.

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

In Russian it's even possible to have a sentence like "мне идти." with just the dative and the verb (it's one of the ways of saying "I need to go").

to be honest if i ever heard such a phrase i certainly considered it odd like "я читать"

there's a phrase "мне пора" - it's time for me to go, short for "мне пора идти", which IS another example of the dative case

such sentences are called impersonal, as if some force affects or animates you, I'd guess it's a hard concept to grasp for English speakers, i myself sometimes wonder where these constructions come from, philologists probably have some good explanation

(yeah basically what Seraph's link is about)

and there're few such verbs, which necessitate Dative case:

хочется
можется (rarely used)
кажется
нравится
сдаётся (a synonym of кажется which is rarely used)

only хочется and можется cannot be used with a subject, the rest can

further difference between хочется and the rest (save for можется) is that хочется can have a complement in Genitive case, whereas other verbs cannot have complement at all

мне хочется мороженого - i'd like to have an ice cream, i feel like eating ice cream

so хочется isn't exactly a willful decision but rather a mood that moves you

Антону хочется отдыхать - something makes Anton want to have a rest
___________________________________

there's even an odder construction with Genitive and the verb "быть" - "меня там не было" - i wasn't there, but on second thought, to this a close English equivalent not by meaning but by the concept would be it wasn't me

in Ukrainian it's a standard construction applicable to any verb, not only быть, the only difference is those have to be transitive verbs, which is not the case with быть however

Originally Posted by LXNDR

to be honest if i ever heard such a phrase i certainly considered it odd like "я читать"

there's a phrase "мне пора" - it's time for me to go, short for "мне пора идти", which IS another example of the dative case

such sentences are called impersonal, as if some force affects or animates you, I'd guess it's a hard concept to grasp for English speakers, i myself sometimes wonder where these constructions come from, philologists probably have some good explanation

(yeah basically what Seraph's link is about)

and there're few such verbs, which necessitate Dative case:

хочется
можется (rarely used)
кажется
нравится
сдаётся (rarely used)

only хочется and можется cannot be used with a subject, the rest can

further difference between хочется and the rest (save for можется) is that хочется can have a complement in Genitive case, whereas other verbs cannot have complement at all

мне хочется мороженого - i'd like to have an ice cream, i feel like eating ice cream

so хочется isn't exactly a willful decision but rather a mood that moves you

Антону хочется отдыхать - something makes Anton want to have a rest
___________________________________

there's even an odder construction with Genitive and the verb "быть" - "меня там не было" - i wasn't there, but on second thought, to this a close English equivalent not by meaning but by the concept would be it wasn't me

in Ukrainian it's a standard construction applicable to any verb, not only быть, the only difference is those have to be transitive verbs, which is not the case with быть however

Thanks for the help LXNDR.

I'll make a note of your post.

At the moment i have been working with these words in dative:

дать
советовать
помогать
звонить

Much appreciated as always - By the way,how do i say that in Russian? I have a feeling i will be using it a lot on here

All the best.

Originally Posted by Black Cat

Thanks for the help LXNDR.

I'll make a note of your post.

At the moment i have been working with these words in dative:

дать
советовать
помогать
звонить

Much appreciated as always - By the way,how do i say that in Russian? I have a feeling i will be using it a lot on here

All the best.

весьма признателен
спасибо большое
премного благодарен

Magic!

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

to be honest if i ever heard such a phrase i certainly considered it odd like "я читать"

there's a phrase "мне пора" - it's time for me to go, short for "мне пора идти", which IS another example of the dative case

There are tons of examples of sentences with just a verb and the dative. It's extremely common, for example
что нам делать? - what should we do?

i only remarked on that particular expression

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

There are tons of examples of sentences with just a verb and the dative. It's extremely common, for example
что нам делать? - what should we do?

this one is legit, i feel like a closer translation would be what are we to do? despite the lack of Dative case

indeed this is a set pattern for a certain type of inеrrogative sentences like

куда нам бежать?
как мне быть?
когда ему прийти?


мне идти will sound normal in an alternative question like мне идти или бежать? or just in a simple question мне идти? which is basically asking for permission to go, but hardly as a statement

Good stuff lads.

Plenty of examples for me to make a note of and play around with.

нам удалось - (for us was success) we succeeded (in/to something)
нам пришлось - (for us was necessary) we had (to)

Originally Posted by Seraph

нам удалось - (for us was success) we succeeded (in/to something)
нам пришлось - (for us was necessary) we had (to)

I've written down all of the information contained in that link Seraph.Very useful indeed.

Originally Posted by Black Cat

I've written down all of the information contained in that link Seraph.Very useful indeed.

there's only a spelling error in the word хочется it's spelled without the soft sign ь

Originally Posted by LXNDR

there's only a spelling error in the word хочется it's spelled without the soft sign ь

No problem,i forget to put them in all the time anyway