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Thread: Chapter 25 questions

  1. #1
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    Chapter 25 questions

    Hello all,

    I just have a few questions on this chapter.


    As always, an exercise on imperfective/perfective aspect.

    возвращать/вернуть
    --Вы уже (have returned) тарелки в столовую?
    --Ещё нет, но я их сейчас (will return).

    Is it вернули, верну?

    --Когда ты (will return) мне мою книгу?
    --Ну что ты! Я тебе её (returned) на прошлой неделе!

    Is it будешь возвращать, вернул?


    Then there's another exercise using the correct form of себя

    The first two questions are: Борис Иванович покупает этот арбуз для (himself) and Я покупаю эту шапку для (myself).
    Is the answer to both of these себя?

    Thanks for any help,
    Z

  2. #2
    Почтенный гражданин Dmitry Khomichuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Hello all,

    I just have a few questions on this chapter.


    As always, an exercise on imperfective/perfective aspect.

    возвращать/вернуть
    --Вы уже (have returned) тарелки в столовую?
    --Ещё нет, но я их сейчас (will return).

    Is it вернули, верну?
    Correct.

    --Когда ты (will return) мне мою книгу?
    --Ну что ты! Я тебе её (returned) на прошлой неделе!

    Is it будешь возвращать, вернул?
    Вернёшь and вернул
    будешь возвращать -> will be returning

    Then there's another exercise using the correct form of себя

    The first two questions are: Борис Иванович покупает этот арбуз для (himself) and Я покупаю эту шапку для (myself).
    Is the answer to both of these себя?

    Thanks for any help,
    Z
    Correct. Also you can use для него самого in the first. But it is more awkward.

  3. #3
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    Dmitry,

    Thanks for your help. A couple more translations I'm having trouble with.

    --I'll take a cup of coffee and a poppy seed bun.
    --To go?
    --No, I'm going to eat it here in the cafeteria.

    --Я возьму чашку кофе и булочку маком.
    --С собой?
    --Нет, я съем здесь, в столовой.


    If I had known that you were going to the concert, I also would have gone.

    Если бы я знал, что ты шла на концерт, я тоже пошёл бы.

    Thanks for any help,
    Z

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    Старший оракул
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    --I'll take a cup of coffee and a poppy seed bun.
    --To go?
    --No, I'm going to eat it here in the cafeteria.

    --Я возьму чашку кофе и булочку маком.
    --С собой?
    --Нет, я съем здесь, в столовой.
    булочку с маком


    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    If I had known that you were going to the concert, I also would have gone.

    Если бы я знал, что ты шла на концерт, я тоже пошёл бы.

    Thanks for any help,
    Z

    "Если бы я знал, что ты шла" does not sound good to me. My proposals:

    - Если бы я знал, что ты пойдёшь на концерт, я тоже пошёл бы.
    - Если бы я знал, что ты идёшь на концерт, я тоже пошёл бы. (Present used as Future)
    - Если бы я знал, что ты собиралась на концерт, я тоже пошёл бы.
    - Если бы я знал, что ты собираешься на концерт, я тоже пошёл бы.

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    Thanks Bob,

    Another simple question. There are verbs of "carrying/bringing/transporting" in this chapter. Are these verbs pronounced the same: везти/вести?

    Z

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Thanks Bob,

    Another simple question. There are verbs of "carrying/bringing/transporting" in this chapter. Are these verbs pronounced the same: везти/вести?

    Z
    Yes, they are
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Thanks Bob,

    Another simple question. There are verbs of "carrying/bringing/transporting" in this chapter. Are these verbs pronounced the same: везти/вести?

    Z
    In infinitive they are pronounces the same but other forms differ.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Here are a couple more I'm not sure of regarding imperfective/perfective aspect.

    бросать/бросить
    --Мне сказали, что вы (have quit) курить.
    --Я (am quitting), но ещё не (have quit).

    Is it бросили, бросаю, бросал?

    Another:

    пропускать/пропустить
    Миша часто (missed) лекции, а Маша инкогда не (missed).

    Is is пропускал/прорпустила?

    In this sentence I'm not sure of the form of "hundred" to use. Is this correct? Я думаю, что я проеду сегодня больше ста километров.

    Thanks for any help,
    Z

  9. #9
    Paul G.
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    бросать/бросить
    --Мне сказали, что вы (have quit) курить.
    --Я (am quitting), но ещё не (have quit).
    -- Мне сказали, что вы бросили курить. (Ок)
    --Я бросаю, но ещё не бросил. (Ok)

    Миша часто (missed) лекции, а Маша инкогда не (missed).
    Миша часто пропускал лекции, а Маша никогда не пропускала.

    It's strange, why did you replace imperfective with perfective in the second case? If you see such a word like "часто" implying a lot of actions, it always demands the imperfective. It's regularity.

    Perfective implies a specific action concerned with the object. For example:

    Маша пропустила вчерашнюю лекцию.

    We mean a specific lecture, so we need the perfective. I even can say the perfective form is close to the English article "the".

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    But, Она ни разу не пропустила лекцию.
    Она никогда не пропускала лекцию.
    I don't think there's much of a difference between these phrases.

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    Physically, they mean the same. However, the logical structure is different:
    "Она никогда не пропускала лекцию" refers to the whole period of time due to "никогда": [for the entire period of her study] she has never missed a lecture. So, it is perceived as a long continuous process (although, it is negated).
    "Она ни разу не пропустила лекцию" refers logically to a single event of missing a lecture. The sentence says that event did not exist due to "ни разу": there was no a single event when she missed a lecture. So, it is perceived as a momentary action (which did not happen).

    I agree the both approaches finally result in the same logical consequence. So, they are just two different ways (equally possible) to view the reality. But a language learner needs to understand how those ways are different linguistically.

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    Sorry for the late reply. I haven't been able to get online in a few days. (Wine season has begun for us and I spend evenings crushing and pressing grapes.) Thanks for your help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    It's strange, why did you replace imperfective with perfective in the second case? If you see such a word like "часто" implying a lot of actions, it always demands the imperfective. It's regularity...
    Because I still don't have a good sense for imperfective/perfective. The second part of the sentence, with никогда seemed like a definitive statement, so I thought of the perfective. I understand your explanation and see why that's not right.

    A couple more questions...There is an exercise where there is a picture with arrows showing someone walking around a town and I'm supposed to describe his movements using prefixed verbs of motion. Is this sentence correct? Он заходит в киоск для купить газету. I want to say, "He's stopping by the kiosk to buy a newspaper." How about this? Он вошёл в парк и пошёл по парку. I want to say, "He walked into the park and walked around the park."

    What about this translation? "Petya walked up to the professor and told him that he had to miss the lecture today." Петя подшёл к профессору и ему сказал, что ему надо было сегодня бросить лекцию.

    How about this? "I hope that I soon get accustomed to the weather here." Я надеюсь, что я скоро привыкну к погоде здесь.

    Thanks again for any help,
    Z

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    Он заходит в киоск для купить газету.
    Он подходит к киоску, чтобы купить газету (you need a noun after "для").
    Заходить можно только вовнутрь, а внутри киоска мало места

    Он вошёл в парк и пошёл по парку.
    - Correct.

    Я надеюсь, что я скоро привыкну к погоде здесь.
    Я надеюсь, что скоро привыкну к здешней/местной погоде. (second Я is redundant)
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    What about this translation? "Petya walked up to the professor and told him that he had to miss the lecture today." Петя подшёл к профессору и ему сказал, что ему надо было сегодня бросить лекцию.
    Maximixiv, you missed this one.

    Zorro, from your English sentence I did not get, if it happened before the lecture Petya had to miss, or after it?

    My version.

    If before the lecture (he came to professor in advance):
    Петя подошёл к профессору и сказал ему, что ему сегодня придётся пропустить лекцию.
    If after the lecture (which Petya already missed):
    Петя подошёл к профессору и сказал ему, что ему сегодня пришлось пропустить лекцию.

    Notes:
    1. The prefix takes "подо-" form with "идти": подойти (infinitive), подойду - подойдёшь etc. (future), подошёл - подошла etc. (past).
    2. "... и ему сказал" sounds awkward, the natural way is "... и сказал ему".
    3. We usually use "надо" when talking about something neutral. If it is something negative, but you explain you just had to do it (did not have any other choice), so it is like a kind of excuse, then you use other words. The verb "приходиться" is the best here: мне пришлось + infinitive, мне придётся + infinitive. Another way to express it is the adjective "вынужден": я вынужден(а) + infinitive, я был(а) вынужден(а) + infinitive.
    4. "Бросить" is not a proper verb. It means "to leave something forever". You can say for example: "Мне придётся бросить учёбу" - I will have to leave my study (i.e. to quit the university forever). The expression "бросить лекцию" more or less can be applied to a professor (not to a student) who started a lecture, but then suddenly left the classroom and did not finish the lecture.
    5. The whole sentence is ambiguous due to double "ему": the first "ему" is clear (it applies to the professor), but the second "ему" can be confusing. I would add a clarification in brackets like this:
    Петя подошёл к профессору и сказал ему, что ему (Пете) сегодня придётся пропустить лекцию.

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    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Maximixiv, you missed this one.
    My apologies. It's sad because I knew answer
    (I guess that Zorro spoke about "after the lecture" case.)
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxmixiv View Post
    My apologies. It's sad because I knew answer
    (I guess that Zorro spoke about "after the lecture" case.)
    I am not sure. It is because due to the tense agreement in English, "Petya walked up to the professor and told him that he had to miss the lecture today", "that he had to miss..." is required to be in the past since the main clause "walked up and told him" is in the past. So, we do not actually know to which moment of time "he had to" applies. If I don't mistake with the English grammar Native speakers can correct me.

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    Thanks both for your help,

    I didn't write the English sentence "Petya walked up to the professor and told him that he had to miss the lecture today." it's from the textbook, but I am a native speaker and only one meaning occurred to me, that he was telling the professor ahead of time that he would have to miss the lecture later that day. I can't explain why grammatically, it just makes more sense dramatically.

    A couple more problems. Here's a translation:

    We came out of the theater, got on a bus, and left for home.
    Мы вышли из театра, сели на автобус и уехал домой. (Should I use в or на before автобус?)

    I walked into the room, sat down at the table and began to eat.
    Я вошёл в комнату, сел за стол и начнал есть. (I'm to sure about начнал here.)

    Thanks,
    Z

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    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Oh well!
    "tense agreement" addled me again!

    сели ... и уехал... -> сели ... и уехали...
    начнал есть -> начал есть

    If you get on the dedicated bus, both "в/на" are possible.
    If you had to wait some vehicle (bus/trolleybus/tram, even considered taking a taxi), then you should go with "на".
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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