Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит......
when I first read this, i was like " WTF!@!# I don't understand!
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Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит......
when I first read this, i was like " WTF!@!# I don't understand!
Yeah, no kidding; any native speakers want to tell us why the heck you phrase it that way?
You understand it now? Just in case you don't: Your surname doesn't tell me anything/doesn't mean anything to meQuote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
He-he, welcome to the world of the language of freedom, where you are able to choose a word order you prefer :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Why is твоя not next to фамилия?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
How do these sound?
Твоя фамилия мне ни о чем не говорит......
or
Фамилия твоя мне ни о чем не говорит......
A striking example of that word order doesn't play an important part in Russian. All the phrases (including Mordan's one) look fine :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kwatts59
P.S. I definitely made a mistake in my first sentence, but I don't know how to say it correctly ("яркий пример того, что порядок слов не играет важной роли в русском языке") :oops:
Only a very small mistake. No "of"... oh and maybe part should be role.Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
A striking example that word order doesn't play an important role in Russian.
What about these variants:
Не говорит фамилия мне твоя ни о чём.
Ни о чём фамилия твоя не говорит мне.
BTW Are you sure "of that" is incorrect? I'm pretty sure some people say that.
It was completely unintelligible to me until kalinka pointed out that the "of" was extraneous. You could say "A striking example of the small part word order plays in Russian," but "of that" doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Five "bricks' of that sentence ("твоя", "фамилия", "не говорит", "мне", "ни о чём") can be rearranged in any order and still result an uderstandable and grammaticlly correct phrase, though some variants will be twisted and stylistically poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Actually, these variants are more weird (look like Master Yoda's speech), but, anyway, they make sense :)
And I am pretty sure some people don't speak grammatically correct English. If you I mean get what! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by basurero
and I am one of them...
LOL
What about
Твоя ни о чём не мне говорит фамилия.
or
не твоя фамилия мне говорит ни о чем
Isn't that a whole different meaning?
Cheater! You've broken the "bricks"! (and Kalinka too) :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by kwatts59
Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. It's because говорит has an affirmative sense, and ни о чем has a negative one. In English such phrases are common (for example, "says nothing"), but not in Russian. You have to put не before говоритQuote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
"не говорит" must be used like singe "brick", imho
Well, it does make some (very weird) sense -- in a proper context it would mean "the name, which is not yours, tells me about nothing". There is also an expression "govorit' ni o chem" meaning "talk about nothing [important]".Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
wow! :o
Word order is very important in Russian. I can't elucidate the particular nuances of the initial phrase, which does sound pretty unusual, but here are some simple examples, all of which convey to the listener different information. The basic concept of John reading a book is there, but there are big differences otherwise.
Иван читает книгу. John is reading a/the book.
Книгу читает Иван. It's John who is reading a/the book.
Иван книгу читает. ??
Читает Иван книгу. What's John reading? -A book.
Читает книгу Иван. Who's reading a/the book?
Each of these sentences conveys additional information beyond John reading a book.
And we're not even going to mention Книга читается Иваном (he said, mentioning).
So, native speakers, what can you say about this to convince us poor Americans, locked into such a rigid word order that we have to jump through hoops to circumlocute, that Russian word order, as Mr. pranki said above, "doesn't play an important part in Russian."
OK, you're right. But usually this additional sense is very insignificant and can be ignored. I admit each variant of phrase "Фамилия ..." has its own nuance, but these nuances are very unnoticeable. Actually, many of Russians really don't notice such nuances. Your example is very simple and clear. But, for instance, I can't say what is the difference between "Фамилия твоя мне не нравится" and "Не нравится мне твоя фамилия".Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
As for "doesn't play an important part in Russian", I mean word order doesn't play an important part in contrast to English :) I'd say it's logical stress and intonation which play an important role in Russian, not word order itself. And often different word orders just help to express different logical stresses. If you change word order but don't support it with intonation and logical stress, you don't change meaning noticeably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
pranki, yes I agree, but you are forgetting about the written word. No intonation there, unless you are assuming that the reader will be mentally adding their own intonations! Lots of stuff you can convey with unusual devices, and sometimes not even that.
сия словеса написалъ Давидъ.
Студента могут мотивировать только деньги
another example I just read in the paper
You have to read the whole sentence to understand the meaning!!! Difficult!
Why is the subject at the very end?
While in english, you get to learn what's going on as your read..
The student is only motivated by money
Студента могут мотивировать только деньги
You can translate this sentence as follows:
The only thing that can motivate a student is money.
Something that can motivate a student is only money.
Only money can motivate a student.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
I disagree with this statement.
I agree with your disagreement! The other motivation is sex :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kwatts59
The third motivation is a Ferrari! 8) 8) 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
Oh, it equals to money :)Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai
It couldn't be, considering the Ferrari a gift from your father for having achieve degree! :wink: "WOW, thank you Daddy!"Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
When we speak such phrases we stress certain words and the phrase has some special tint. (We got it from spoken Russian, where we relate a certain phrase (words order) with our emotions).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
let's mark phrasal stress with ' and a chunk with []
[Tвоя] '[фамилия] [ни о чём] [мне] [не говорит]. - normal
[Tвоя] '[фамилия] [мне] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - normal
'[Фамилия] [мне] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "yours"
'[Мне] [твоя] [фамилия] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "me"
'[Мне] [фамилия] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "me" and "yours"
You can hear such stresses in spoken versions.
And you can use all variants possible with those chunks. Some of them will be a bit awkward, but they can be smoothed with the tone and stress of your voice.
You should try studying Russian poetry. To stick to the rhyme and meter the word order is even more "junmbled" than Mordan's example.
In Spoken English they also may change the words order.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
doesn't ring a bell... your family name, I mean
In Russian we have the freedom to say what's coming to our mind first.
We can construct a phrase while we are speaking.
In English we need to compile a phrase before speaking.
отрицание НЕ не может быть перенесено,Quote:
Originally Posted by kwatts59
в противном случае мы читаем
"не мне"
Это не так,Quote:
Originally Posted by garans
'[Фамилия] [мне] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "ME"
'[Фамилия] [твоя] '[мне] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "yours"
Words order doesn't matter grammatically, but then, depending on the context, you may rearrange words in such a way to stress some of them more. It's like fine tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит -
the word Фамилия is stressed
Ни о чем мне твоя фамилия не говорит
- the accent is on the fact that surname DOESN'T say anything about you
Мне твоя фамилия ни о чём не говорит - stressed is the fact than I MYSELF don't know anything about you
Typically the word order in such sentences help to stress some aspects of the meaning.
I did my best to explain. Hope this will help.
The word order DOES play an imortant role in Russian, especially in written form, where you cannot hear actual logical stresses. In written Russian what is known (linguists call it "theme, thema") usually goes forward, and what is new ("rhema") goes in the end. In spoken language the order is often absolutely inverse, people tend to tell new and important information in the first place, but there are intonation sresses also.
So
Студента могут мотивировать только деньги. It means that Only money may motivate a student (not busienessman, worker, teacher etc.)
Только деньги могут мотивировать студента = Only money (not a promotion, interest or whatever) may motivate a student.
Мне не нравится твоя фамилия = I don't like your family name.
Фамилия мне твоя не нравится = spoken intonation, something like Your family name...well, I don't like IT!