Thread: a

Ok.. i am very confused!

I always here put "a" after words, and it confuses me. I saw in russian they say "putina" when its just putin, and i have heard people say "ресторанa" when the word is ресторан... they also say things like ты хочешь пойти в ресторанa? in pimsleur... and its so confusing!

so am i hearing things? or is this a grammer thing? my russian friend said you do not add on the a....

Have you heard about declension?
In Russian nouns, adjectives, numerals etc. change their endings, depending on what case and number they are in (sometimes gender also matters).

So "a" that is added sometimes is a part of that system. (But "ты хочешь пойти в ресторанa?" is wrong, it should be "пойти в ресторан_"). You need to know more about the case system to understand Russian, it's crucial and is equivalent of the word order in English.

A couple of examples ("ресторан" and "Путин" in different cases):
ресторан, Путин
ресторана, Путина
ресторану, Путину,
рестораном, Путиным
ресторане, Путине

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Have you heard about declension?
In Russian nouns, adjectives, numerals etc. change their endings, depending on what case and number they are in (sometimes gender also matters).

So "a" that is added sometimes is a part of that system. (But "ты хочешь пойти в ресторанa?" is wrong, it should be "пойти в ресторан_"). You need to know more about the case system to understand Russian, it's crucial and is equivalent of the word order in English.

A couple of examples ("ресторан" and "Путин" in different cases):
ресторан, Путин
ресторана, Путина
ресторану, Путину,
рестораном, Путиным
ресторане, Путине

Why does Путин take the adjective ending in the instrumental case?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

ресторан, Путин
ресторана, Путина
ресторану, Путину,
рестораном, Путиным
ресторане, Путине

no i havent... i just trickle along in russian, just speaking it on a day to day basis.... i never learned grammer!

so when do you use each of these?!

Originally Posted by Автобус

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Have you heard about declension?
In Russian nouns, adjectives, numerals etc. change their endings, depending on what case and number they are in (sometimes gender also matters).

So "a" that is added sometimes is a part of that system. (But "ты хочешь пойти в ресторанa?" is wrong, it should be "пойти в ресторан_"). You need to know more about the case system to understand Russian, it's crucial and is equivalent of the word order in English.

A couple of examples ("ресторан" and "Путин" in different cases):
ресторан, Путин
ресторана, Путина
ресторану, Путину,
рестораном, Путиным
ресторане, Путине

Why does Путин take the adjective ending in the instrumental case?

Last names are exceptions. Both -ин (Russian -ин only, names like Чаплин (Charlie Chaplin) declines like a regular name) and -ов (-ев/-ёв) last names change to -иным or -овым(-евым/-ёвым) in the instrumental. Also, female last names decline differently as well.

-ова
-ову
-овой
-овой
-овой
-овой

Female last names -ина (again, female RUSSIAN last names, e.g. Людмила Путина, Анна Каренина.. etc) decline in the same exact way as -ова (Анна Каренина, за Анну Каренину, от Анны Карениной.. etc.)

-ский/-ская last names decline like any -ский/-ская adjective (Достоевский, за Достоевского.. etc)

Примечание: "foreign" FEMALE last names do not decline at all (С Биллом Клинтоном и Хиллари Клинтон). The only exception is when the female last name ends with -a (Она любит Кристину Агилеру). In that case, similar last names would decline as any Russian female noun that ends in -а.

Originally Posted by Автобус

Why does Путин take the adjective ending in the instrumental case?

Because it's a surname. Russian last (and sometimes first) names are declined in different ways, sometimes similar to nouns, sometimes similar to adjectives. In the instrumental case last names ending on '-ин'-indeed take the adjective ending.
Here's a BIG rule about that (in Russian).

and can you explain the other part to me?

Originally Posted by giovanni

and can you explain the other part to me?

Are you talking about examples?

У меня есть ресторан - I have a restaurant.
У меня нет ресторана - I don't have a restaurant.
Мы направились к ресторану - We headed for the restaurant.
за рестораном - behind the restaurant
Мы обедали в ресторане - We had dinner at the restaurant.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by giovanni

and can you explain the other part to me?

Are you talking about examples?

У меня есть ресторан - I have a restaurant.
У меня нет ресторана - I don't have a restaurant.
Мы направились к ресторану - We headed for the restaurant.
за рестораном - behind the restaurant
Мы обедали в ресторане - We had dinner at the restaurant.

yes! thanks so much!

but what is the purpose of these? just to agree?

Originally Posted by giovanni

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by giovanni

and can you explain the other part to me?

Are you talking about examples?

У меня есть ресторан - I have a restaurant.
У меня нет ресторана - I don't have a restaurant.
Мы направились к ресторану - We headed for the restaurant.
за рестораном - behind the restaurant
Мы обедали в ресторане - We had dinner at the restaurant.

yes! thanks so much!

but what is the purpose of these? just to agree?

Declension? They tell you the relationship between the words. Who does what to whom and how and stuff like that. Very important!

Here's a good site:
http://russian.cornell.edu/grammar/subject_win.htm

Originally Posted by basurero

Originally Posted by giovanni

but what is the purpose of these? just to agree?

Declension? They tell you the relationship between the words. Who does what to whom and how and stuff like that. Very important!

Exactly!
Let's take three Russian words: 1) dog (собака), 2) cat (кошка), 3) sees (видит). The word order in Russian isn't strict, so any combination of these three words can make a real sentence. And the only way to understand who sees whom is to look at the endings (cases give us that info):

(1-3-2)
Собака видит кошку. (A dog sees a cat)
Собаку видит кошка. (A cat sees a dog)

You may change the word order, but the result will be the same, because endings matter here, not the word order:

(1-2-3)
Собака кошку видит. (A dog sees a cat)
Собаку кошка видит. (A cat sees a dog)

(2-3-1)
Кошку видит cобака. (A dog sees a cat)
Кошка видит собаку. (A cat sees a dog)

To get an idea of what it is, think of English:

He sees her. correct
He sees she. wrong

She sees him. correct
Her sees he. wrong

His book. correct
He book. wrong

The pronouns are declined according to which is the subject and which is the object, it doesn't make sense if you use the wrong form. The same kind of thing happens in Russian except it happens for every word, not just pronouns. If you are serious about learning Russian you will spend a good chunk of your life memorising various declensions! But don't worry, there are harder things...

Giovanni - to compare it to Italian, have a look here:
http://www.italian-language-study.com/l ... rammar.htm

It'll give you a rough idea of why you're hearing these "weird sounds" at the end of the words.....

As far as I gather on this board, Pimsleur does not touch on this at all, you're supposed to just accept it and to take it in (like a child would learn a language). It's a system that may be a bit difficult for adults : adults tend to ask the question "why?".....
I'd advise you to get a good, basic grammar book (like the New Penguin Course), so that you can look up things if you get confused.

giovanni, maybe you've heard about declension in Latin?

Originally Posted by Оля

giovanni, maybe you've heard about declension in Latin?

aha no... latin has no use for me... I could have learned it, but i had to learn english instead!

I think i understand this! THANK YOU to the person who gave the site to compare with italian. So it is like "indirect" and "direct" objects right? You change it when one thing is the object of the sentence or something like that?

Like in italian... io ti vedo. I see you. You cannot use "io tu vedo" I think it would be like saying "я ты вижу"... right?

But in russian, if a noun takes the role as an object, you must change it to match... am I correct?


And for anyone who speaks a romance language... i just found out something amazing! All my life i have spoken romance languages and not asked questions, but i figured it out. To form the future tense of most verbs, you always take the infinitive and add an ending. But i never understood why these endings were so different in each language! But i just figured it out! You take the verb for "to do", and change it to match the subject, then put it on! like this..

English Italian French Spanish Portuguese
to do fare+ho=far

[quote=giovanni]

Originally Posted by Оля

giovanni, maybe you've heard about declension in Latin?

aha no... latin has no use for me... I could have learned it, but i had to learn english instead!

I think i understand this! THANK YOU to the person who gave the site to compare with italian. So it is like "indirect" and "direct" objects right? You change it when one thing is the object of the sentence or something like that?

Like in italian... io ti vedo. I see you. You cannot use "io tu vedo" I think it would be like saying "я ты вижу"... right?

But in russian, if a noun takes the role as an object, you must change it to match... am I correct?


And for anyone who speaks a romance language... i just found out something amazing! All my life i have spoken romance languages and not asked questions, but i figured it out. To form the future tense of most verbs, you always take the infinitive and add an ending. But i never understood why these endings were so different in each language! But i just figured it out! You take the verb for "to do", and change it to match the subject, then put it on! like this..

English Italian French Spanish Portuguese
to do fare+ho=far

Originally Posted by giovanni

they also say things like ты хочешь пойти в ресторанa?

Не может такого быть. I hope they say it without mistakes - Ты хочешь пойти в ресторан?.

Originally Posted by TATY

Yes, but it's not just if the noun is the object. And it's not just nouns. Everything in Russian declines: Nouns, adjectives, numbers, pronouns, possesive pronons.

Он дал новую русскую книгу молодой красивой девушке.
He gave the new Russian book (новая русская книга) to the young beautiful girl (молодая красивая девушка).

The New Russian Book is the direct object of the verb so is in the accusative case.
The Young Beautiful Girl is the indirect object of the verb so goes in the dative case.

You need a book or course that teaches you Russian grammar.

yeah... i think i understand this! When it is like direct object, ANYTHING relating to that word is put in that case... and so on!

but what about the other cases? when do you use those?

Originally Posted by giovanni

Originally Posted by TATY

Yes, but it's not just if the noun is the object. And it's not just nouns. Everything in Russian declines: Nouns, adjectives, numbers, pronouns, possesive pronons.

Он дал новую русскую книгу молодой красивой девушке.
He gave the new Russian book (новая русская книга) to the young beautiful girl (молодая красивая девушка).

The New Russian Book is the direct object of the verb so is in the accusative case.
The Young Beautiful Girl is the indirect object of the verb so goes in the dative case.

You need a book or course that teaches you Russian grammar.

yeah... i think i understand this! When it is like direct object, ANYTHING relating to that word is put in that case... and so on!

but what about the other cases? when do you use those?

Here's a quick run-through. These are just general uses, each case is used in other contexts than those given:

Nominative:
This is the 'normal' form of the word, i.e. the form you find in the dictionary. It's name comes from "nom" name. It's used for the subject of the sentence/clause.
Иван - мальчик
Ivan is a boy

Это - Лена
This is Lena.

Genitive
This express the English idea of 'of' or the possessive 's ending.
Супруга Путина
Putin's wife

Книга Лены
Lena's book.

Жанр книги
The genre of the book.

Also lots of prepositions take the genitive:

без тебя - without you
около станции - near the station
до конца - until the end
Я из Италии - I am from Italy

Accusative
This is used for the direct object of the verb.

Я вижу Ивана
Я вижу Лену
Я вижу тебя

I see Ivan/Lena/You

Dative
This is used for the indirect object of the verb.

Я послал письмо (acc.) Лене (dat.)
I sent a letter to Lena.

Мне холодно
I am cold (literally: To me is cold)

Ивану 20 лет
Ivan is 20 years-old (lit. To Ivan are 20 years)

Instrumental
This denotes the instrument/agent with which something is carried out:
Я пишу ручкой
I am writing with a pen

Also with the preposition 'with' c:
Мальчик с красивой девушкой
The boy with the beautiful girl.

Prepositional (aka Locative)

This is used with a number of prepositions. The most common use is to express location:

в + prepositional case = in

в России - in Russia
в школе - at school
в Лондоне - in London

Also на - on.

На столе - on the table

о - about

Я прочитал книгу (acc.) о Путине (prep.)
I read a book about Putin


But this is a very simplified explination. There are hundreds of other uses. Some verbs just take certain cases, you have to learn which goes with which.

You also need to learn how the different nouns and adjectives change. Masculine, Feminine and Neuter nouns have different endings for the cases, as do nouns in the plural.

Thank you so much!!! I have never had a grammer lesson like this, because my russian friends only can speak it, they dont know how to teach. So thank you very much, i feel the world of russian being opened to me!

So are these the only cases but with hundreds more uses? Or will i be surprised with more later on?