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Thread: какой-нибудь, какой-то, какой-либо и любой

  1. #1
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    какой-нибудь, какой-то, какой-либо и любой

    Privet.
    Believe me is not fun for me to ask about this issue again and again but what I can do.
    I wanted to say to a client: "If you want any information don't hesitate to call me"
    I said:
    Если Вы хотите какую-нибудь информацию позвоните мне.
    I used какой-нибудь instead of какой-то because it subjunctive clause. But honestly I don't know why какой-либо or любой will not also be appropriate.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  2. #2
    Почтенный гражданин Suobig's Avatar
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    1. We don't use verb "хотеть" for "information". We use "нуждаться" или "требоваться"
    2. I'm not too sure, but it seems to me that "don't hesitate to..." makes a phrase polite and a bit more formal. You can do the same in russian by adding "пожалуйста"^

    "Если вам будет нужна какая-нибудь информация - пожалуйста, звоните"
    "Если вам потребуется какая-нибудь информация - пожалуйста звоните"
    There's a small pause in the middle of the phrase. It sounds OK, but if you want to avoid it, just change parts:
    "Пожалуйста, звоните, если вам потребуется какая-нибудь информация".

    In everyday speach you can use all four of these pronouns are OK. May be "любой" sounds a bit more self-confident and "какой-нибудь" a bit more formal that others. But difference is minor.
    Antonio1986 likes this.

  3. #3
    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    "*-либо" is a formal version of "*-нибудь"
    любой is also ok in this context.
    Если вам потребуется любая (какая-нибудь) дополнительная информация касательно примеров девиантного поведения, вы можете узнать ее по телефону 911.
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    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Basically you will be understood anyway. And all listed ways are quite acceptable. All the below you need only if you aspire for a literary ideal Russian, which will take from you many years (as you already noted elsewhere) even if possible at all.

    Best formulations are:
    За любой необходимой информацией обращайтесь ко мне.
    and
    Если вам потребуется какая-либо(-нибудь) информация, пожалуйста (по)звоните мне.

    -либо is a bit more literary and -нибудь is a bit more colloquial, that is all difference.

    -то will do also but it is mainly used in the past and means "no matter which exactly" or "I don't know which exactly". If you can replace the whole pronoun with "unknown" you can safely use -то.

    "Если вам потребуется любая..." will do also but it is felt a little bit unnatural. There is an ambiguity: it can be understood as "If you need (15Gb of) information and you don't care which information exactly..."
    Antonio1986 likes this.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  5. #5
    Paul G.
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    I have explained the topic (about these terrible какой-либо, какой-то, что-либо, что-то, кое-что and so on) so many times, that it seems I've got a callosity in my brain.

    Actually, I want to write FAQ about Russian, because it's impossible to explain the same things again and again.
    (Please, don't take it personally. You may ask as much as you want.)

    "If you want any information don't hesitate to call me."

    Firstly, if you imply some events in the future, you have to use the future tense everywhere: "Если вы захотите (future)... позвоните (future)..."
    Когда я буду (fut.) на Кипре, я зайду (fut.) в магазин к Антонио.
    Если Антонио захочет (fut.), он угостит (fut.) меня чашечкой кофе.

    If you use the present tense + the future like you did, it means you ask a person about their wishes right now.
    Если хотите (pres.), я вызову (fut.) такси. = If you want (at the moment), I order a taxi (will do it in the future).
    Если хотите, мы можем отправить ваш заказ курьером. (or "мы отправим")
    Если хотите, мы отложим это кольцо до завтра.

    Secondly, we have a situation when the whole pattern is wrong. Usually we don't say like that. "Information" in Russian as a rule has a specific connotation. You should specify or hint what kind of information you mean.

    Если вам будет нужна дополнительная информация, не стесняйтесь позвонить мне. (The present tense and infinitives are preferable)
    Если вам потребуется любая информация об этом товаре, не стесняйтесь позвоните мне. (I specified what kind of "any" information a person may need, "about the thing/goods")
    If you mean "information" in general, that's a good decision to refuse the word "information" at all. Usually we say in this way:
    Если вам что-то понадобится, не стесняйтесь (по)звонить мне. (The future perfective or infinitive work fine here)
    Если у вас возникнут [любые] вопросы, не стесняйтесь (по)звонить мне. ("Любые вопросы" sounds like "any likely information" here ,so you don't need to specify the context)
    Some short versions:
    По любым вопросам обращайтесь ко мне.
    По любым вопросам [сразу] звоните мне. (сразу = right away)
    Antonio1986 likes this.

  6. #6
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    ...Если хотите, мы отложим это кольцо до завтра. ...
    Я бы добавила для вас: отложим для вас.

    Вы отложили для меня то кольцо? Я хочу ещё раз на него посмотреть. Спасибо!

    - Вы отложили для нас, как обещали, кольца, которые мы вчера выбрали? - Да, отложил. Вот они.
    Antonio1986 likes this.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



  7. #7
    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    Here's a copy-paste of my old post from another forum devoted to learning of the Russian language:

    ***************************************

    ТО vs НИБУДЬ

    At first, a little of theory.
    Both of them are used in Russian to describe something undefined. The examples are:
    Кто-то, Что-то, Где-то, Когда-то, Почему-то, Зачем-то, Отчего-то, etc.
    And just the same with НИБУДЬ

    Their equivalents in English are somebody, someone, somewhere, etc.

    There are many differences in the usage of ТО and НИБУДЬ in the Russian language, depending on:
    what we mean: plurals or singulars
    what tense we use: past, present or future
    what kind of sentence we use: declarative, interrogative; main or additional part of a sentence.

    The main idea is to use ТО when we mean something ... kind of definite things, and НИБУДЬ when we mean something indefinite.

    With the past tense we use mainly ТО, that's because the history is always definite.
    While with the future tense we can use both variants depending on what we mean.

    Examples:

    Я где-то достал эту запись. I got this recording from somewhere.
    This "somewhere" here is a definite thing, even though we have no idea now, where exactly from we got the recording.

    And the future variant:
    Я где-нибудь найду эту запись. I'll find this recording somewhere.
    Now we use НИБУДЬ because we don't mean a certain place, where this recording could be found.
    There are MANY variants where we can find it, and it doesn't matter now, where exactly I will find it.

    Если я пойду в магазин за чем-нибудь, я могу купить тебе что-нибудь тоже.
    If I go to the store to buy something, I can buy something for you, too.
    We use нибудь because we don't focus on the object of that bought. We don't mean anything certain.

    Я пошел в магазин за чем-то. I went to a shop for something.
    That bought has been already executed sometime in the past. We bought something certain, although we don't remember what exactly.
    This is the reason why we use ТО.

    Кто-нибудь может мне помочь? Can anybody help me?
    We don't mean anyone certain, but we assume that many of those people can help us.

    Кто-то может мне помочь?
    Same situation, but other meaning: We doubt that many people can help us. Maybe 1 of 10.

    Посмотри, там кто-нибудь дерется? Look, are there anyone fighting?
    Here we concentrate on the presence or absence of the fact of fighting.
    The action itself is more interesting for us than who's actually performing it.

    Посмотри, там кто-то дерется? Look, are there someone fighting? (not sure about the English variant)
    Yes, there is someone fighting, and we wanna know, who exactly.

    Посмотри, там кто-то дерется! - Declarative. Look, there's someone fighting. There is (someone certain) fighting.
    It doesn't matter that we don't know who exactly. And we focus on the people who are fighting rather than on the action.
    Посмотри, Там кто-нибудь дерется! - this is just wrong. Sounds like "Look, there's anybody fighting!"

    A police officer is telling those 10 criminals, standing in front of him in a line.
    I'm sure that someone of you, bast**ds, killed that guy. He uses Кто-ТО.
    Я уверен, что кто-то из вас убил этого человека.

    But if he's not sure if the killer is among them, he asks.
    Убил ли кто-нибудь из вас этого человека?
    (Sounds a bit weird for a Russian, but grammatically correct)

    Same НИБУДЬ used for:
    Havs anyone of you killed someone? Кто-нибудь из вас убивал кого-нибудь? (когда-нибудь)

    The TO is used when we recall about something habitual in the past.
    Когда-то я был молодой. Someday I was young.

    Use НИБУДЬ for an indefinite time in the future:
    Когда-нибудь я куплю эту машину. Someday I'll buy this car.

    If we use БЫ - we can use either, but НИБУДЬ is better, because БЫ has never happened and it's indefinite.
    Если бы кто-нибудь помог мне... If someone helped me.

    We can use either in interrogative sentences:
    Таня любит кого-нибудь? Does Tanya love anyone?
    Таня любит кого-то? Like we give more personal attitude to that someone. Maybe we suspect who it is.

    With declarative statements we can use ТО.
    Таня любит кого-то.
    Like she can't be in love with ANYone. (She is not a <insert a bad word here>).
    So we can't use "любит кого-нибудь" in declarations.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    A piece of advice:
    Use mainly ТО-versions. It is used in 95% of all the cases.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Think of НИБУДЬ as of an exception.
    Maybe like adding "...EVER IT WAS". Like
    Кто-нибудь - whoEVER IT WAS, or "If someone, whoever he was, can do it, then ..."
    Где-нибудь - where...
    etc.
    If you can insert these phrases and the phrase keeps its meaning, then you can use НИБУДЬ. (I'm not sure here although, this rule is yet to be tested).

    *******************************

    Кто-либо = кто-нибудь. (a formal variant)

    So all that said, and getting back to your question:
    Если Вы хотите (получить) какую-нибудь информацию позвоните мне.

    we have:
    so if you want any (I have no idea what exactly, literally any) info -- call me. ("нибудь")
    so if you want some (special, maybe additional info, maybe I suspect what info you can request, but keep my tongue shut for now) info -- call me. ("то")

    Hope that helps.
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

  8. #8
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    Massive explanations from all you. Many thank you. I will use this post as a base for my future research.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  9. #9
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    This is exactly why I am telling Russian are killing me!!!!!

    Посмотри, там кто-нибудь дерется? Look, are there anyone fighting?
    Here we concentrate on the presence or absence of the fact of fighting.
    The action itself is more interesting for us than who's actually performing it.

    Посмотри, там кто-то дерется? Look, are there someone fighting? (not sure about the English variant)
    Yes, there is someone fighting, and we wanna know, who exactly.

    Посмотри, там кто-то дерется! - Declarative. Look, there's someone fighting. There is (someone certain) fighting.
    It doesn't matter that we don't know who exactly. And we focus on the people who are fighting rather than on the action.
    Посмотри, Там кто-нибудь дерется! - this is just wrong. Sounds like "Look, there's anybody fighting!"

    A police officer is telling those 10 criminals, standing in front of him in a line.
    I'm sure that someone of you, bast**ds, killed that guy. He uses Кто-ТО.
    Я уверен, что кто-то из вас убил этого человека.

    But if he's not sure if the killer is among them, he asks.
    Убил ли кто-нибудь из вас этого человека?
    (Sounds a bit weird for a Russian, but grammatically correct)
    I don't claim that I read and understood everything but I have reached some conclusions. This post will be cornerstone of my future analysis
    One sentence that puzzles me:
    I have also to translate some documents of some other customers.
    This will be translated as:
    Мне следует перевести какие-то документы каких-то других клиентов.
    Here the sentence is in future. Because I know very well documents which documents I will translated I use то instead of нибудь.
    Correct?

    P.S. On the sentences you wrote Medved a small correction
    осмотри, там кто-нибудь дерется? Look, is there anyone fighting?
    Here we concentrate on the presence or absence of the fact of fighting.
    The action itself is more interesting for us than who's actually performing it.

    Посмотри, там кто-то дерется? Look, is there someone fighting? (not sure about the English variant)
    Yes, there is someone fighting, and we wanna know, who exactly.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  10. #10
    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    Мне следует перевести какие-то документы каких-то других клиентов.
    ...Because I know very well documents which documents I will translated I use то instead of нибудь.
    Exactly. You kinda got the principle. The grammar is ok!
    But in Russian if we don't want to specify something to someone we say "кое-каких".
    This implies I know what exactly but it's not your business. (Absolutely neutral, doesn't imply any offence)
    also we have кое-кто, кое-что, кое-как, кое-где, кое-когда и т.п.
    Your sentence means that you don't know for sure now which documents from which clients you have to translate.
    But these documents and these clients are already specific, tangible, you may learn what they are somehow.
    Maybe you can learn it tomorrow, when you come to the office. But now you only know that you have some documents from an unknown client to translate. Maybe a friend called you and said that you have an order, but did not specify the exact details.

    So:

    I don't know but I have an opportunity to reveal it (e.g. if I ask him what he is doing) (specific, tangible) - какой-то
    Look, he is translating a document. Посмотри, он переводит какой-то документ.
    He is already translating, the document is defined (by the history) although unspecified.

    I don't know and I have no chance to reveal it (any, vague) - какой-нибудь
    When you'll be translating a document don't forget about this rule.
    Когда будешь переводить какой-нибудь документ, не забудь про это правило.
    The document is undefined and unspecified because it hasn't happened yet.

    I know but not telling - кое-какой

    Don't distract him, he's translating a document.
    Не отвлекай его. Он переводит кое-какой документ.
    The document is defined but unspecified in a way that it's kept a secret even though I know what the document is.
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

  11. #11
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    I have also to translate some documents of some other customers.
    This will be translated as:
    Мне следует перевести какие-то документы каких-то других клиентов.
    I'd say just "Мне надо перевести документы других клиентов."
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  12. #12
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    I'd say just "Мне надо перевести документы других клиентов."
    For some reason I am confusing the words некоторый and the word какой-нибудь/то
    For example:
    1. This historical event is described in some books =
    (a) это историческое событие описано в некоторых книгах
    - I suppose that this implies that there are for example 10 books and the event is described in the 3 or 4 of them.
    (b) это историческое событие описано в каких-нибудь книгах =
    - The only thing I know here is that the event is descriped in some books but I don't have the slighest idea in how many.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  13. #13
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    В некоторых не даёт представления о количестве, просто не во всех. Например, если из ста книг, некоторых может быть 5-10%.
    В каких-нибудь здесь плохо звучит. В каких-нибудь - это в любых, всё равно в каких, не в каких-то определённых.
    Лучше ...описано в каких-то книгах. Надо поискать, в каких именно.
    Antonio1986 likes this.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



  14. #14
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    For some reason I am confusing the words некоторый and the word какой-нибудь/то
    For example:
    1. This historical event is described in some books =
    (a) это историческое событие описано в некоторых книгах
    - I suppose that this implies that there are for example 10 books and the event is described in the 3 or 4 of them.
    (b) это историческое событие описано в каких-нибудь книгах =
    - The only thing I know here is that the event is descriped in some books but I don't have the slighest idea in how many.
    I wrote a reply but it was lost due to site crash.

    (a) Normally "некоторых" = "some of ..." that is a selection from some specified set is implied. "Существует много книг по этому периоду. В некоторых (из них) описано это событие."

    (b) "это историческое событие описано в каких-нибудь книгах" = " I guess this event is described in some books (whatever thay are)." - But this usage is too specific. Much better "какие-нибудь" works in questions. "Описано ли это событие в каких-нибудь книгах? Да, оно описано в каких-то книгах." = "Do any books describe the event? Yes, some books do."
    Lampada and Antonio1986 like this.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  15. #15
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    Two men enter the shop and start speaking with me. When they leave the saleswoman asks me: What they wanted?
    I answer: "They thought I was someone else".
    How I translate this:
    Они думали что я (был ) кто-то другой.

    Also how I translate: There is a possibility that the were searhing for someone stupid.
    "Есть возможность (или наверно или вероятно), что (.) они искали какого-то идиота".
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  16. #16
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Они думали что я (был ) кто-то другой.
    Они приняли меня за кого-то другого.

    Also how I translate: There is a possibility that the were searhing for someone stupid.
    Impossible to translate. Why someone would search for someone stupid?
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

  17. #17
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Они меня с кем-то перепутали.

    Наверно они приняли меня за идиота.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  18. #18
    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    Why someone would search for someone stupid?
    To sell him a stolen cellphone or something like that.
    Antonio1986 likes this.
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

  19. #19
    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    Why someone would search for someone stupid?
    To sell him a stolen cellphone or something like that.

    Наверное, они искали какого-нибудь идиота.
    They probably were looking for a/an/any idiot mentally challenged person.

    Они искали какого-то идиота
    They were walking around and asking everyone they met if they saw a specific idiot.
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

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