Thread: Знать as a predicative

Thanks it-ogo. You're like a black box -- I put the sentence in, you translate, and I get to understand how you do the job. It's quite challenging.
I'll start jotting down every sentence of this sort I encounter. Eventually, I'll get some feeling. Or hang myself in despair.

Anyway.
Что мне делать? What am I to do? Question asked to some superior authority, like Gods or your dietician.
Что мне сделать, чтобы ты перестала меня мучить?
Тебе этого не понять? Can't you understand this (impossibility) ?
Тебе этого не понимать? I have no guess for this one, even assuming it is indeed something one can say.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Originally Posted by Zubr

Ему не ответить на этот вопрос. He can't answer this question.

The phrase itself is correct but rather sonorous. Like if he can't answer this question because he left this world forever.

Not necessarily. It can mean "He won't answer the question, while it is too difficult for him," but the phrase is a bit bookish anyway.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ему не отвечать на этот вопрос. It is not for him to answer this question.

He will never answer this question any more.

This interpretation is possible but I wouldn't understand the sentence in this way. Zubr's translation is OK for me, although my variant was "Nobody is going ask him this question, he doesn't have to answer this question (so he can relax), we have to answer it and we have to think what to answer".
Ему-то хорошо, ему на этот вопрос не отвечать. А вот нам…

И что это за похоронные настроения? )

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Вам сейчас отвечать перед нами за ваши преступления. You are now to answer (before us) for your crimes

ОК. But the style is sonorous.

+1

Что мне делать? What am I to do?

It's OK.

Что мне сделать, чтобы ты перестала меня мучить?

What should I do for you to stop torturing me?

Тебе этого не понять? Can't you understand this (impossibility) ?

Yes. And the affirmative sentence is also possible.
Тебе этого не понять. - You won't understand me/her etc. You can't understand it. You're not able to understand this (e. g. because you have other moral values, or while you have never been in such situation).

I have no guess for this one

Don't try, it's wrong. )

There is a good and common informal phrase, "кому-либо с кем-либо детей не крестить." E. g.
Тебе с ним детей не крестить. ≈ Don't care about what he can think/say about you, he won't play an important role in your life, you're not going to marry him, right?
It can be used in plural too:
нам с вами детей не крестить
etc.

Кстати, Zubr, ты девушка или парень? Скажи, пожалуйста, чтобы я знала, как к тебе обращаться (или напомни, если я уже спрашивала).

Originally Posted by Zubr

Thanks it-ogo. You're like a black box -- I put the sentence in, you translate, and I get to understand how you do the job. It's quite challenging.

Black boxing is my favorite sport.

Что мне делать? What am I to do? Question asked to some superior authority, like Gods or your dietician.

"What should I do?" This one is good everywhere and within any style. I think in questions this phrase has no style specificity and is quite general. Что мне делать? Как нам быть? Где мне поставить машину? Зачем тебе так долго спать?

Тебе этого не понять? Can't you understand this (impossibility) ?

This one is hardly a question.
Тебе этого не понять! - You will never understand it!

Тебе этого не понимать? I have no guess for this one, even assuming it is indeed something one can say.

I can not imagine the situation when it can have a sense.

Ladies and gentlement, please meet my worst nightmare -- two russian-speaking fellows understanding given samples of Russian in different ways.

Originally Posted by Zaya

Not necessarily. It can mean "He won't answer the question, while it is too difficult for him," but the phrase is a bit bookish anyway.

You meant "because it is too difficult" right?

Originally Posted by Zaya

This interpretation is possible but I wouldn't understand the sentence in this way. Zubr's translation is OK for me, although my variant was "Nobody is going ask him this question, he doesn't have to answer this question (so he can relax), we have to answer it and we have to think what to answer".
Ему-то хорошо, ему на этот вопрос не отвечать. А вот нам…

Is there a way to make the initial sentence less ambiguous? Playing with word order or putting some "это"?
"Это не ему отвечать на этот вопрос." может?

Originally Posted by Zaya

There is a good and common informal phrase, "кому-либо с кем-либо детей не крестить."

Great, I like such idioms. Мне с тобой детей не крестить. Yes I can perfectly imagine myself saying this -- now I'll go and look for conflict situations with innocent Russians, and get a chance to use this phrase.

Originally Posted by Zaya

Кстати, Zubr, ты девушка или парень? Скажи, пожалуйста, чтобы я знала, как к тебе обращаться (или напомни, если я уже спрашивала).

Я парень, поэтому я выбрал имя "зубр" а не "зубровка".
Also, did you use спрашивать because you were just supposing maybe you already asked? In case you knew you asked before, would you say "Я спросила уже давно, и потом забыла, ты девушка или парень. Ну, давай, скажи!"
(I'm not sure wether this needs some ли or not...)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

"What should I do?" This one is good everywhere and within any style. I think in questions this phrase has no style specificity and is quite general. Что мне делать? Как нам быть? Где мне поставить машину? Зачем тебе так долго спать?

Great. It seems these sentences remain grammatical if you remove the dative subject, right?

Thanks for being so helpful guys.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Ladies and gentlement, please meet my worst nightmare -- two russian-speaking fellows understanding given samples of Russian in different ways.

Сейчас придет кто-нибудь еще, и будет третье толкование. ))

Originally Posted by Zubr

You meant "because it is too difficult" right?

Right. Sorry, my English is not perfect.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Originally Posted by Zaya

This interpretation is possible but I wouldn't understand the sentence in this way. Zubr's translation is OK for me, although my variant was "Nobody is going ask him this question, he doesn't have to answer this question (so he can relax), we have to answer it and we have to think what to answer".
Ему-то хорошо, ему на этот вопрос не отвечать. А вот нам…

Is there a way to make the initial sentence less ambiguous? Playing with word order or putting some "это"?
"Это не ему отвечать на этот вопрос".

I don't like this one. And I think your first translation is OK and the most likely, if we don't have context.
I just wanted to show that not only one way of translating this sentence is possible. If you want it to have only one meaning, we need the context (not "это" or another word order), and I gave the example of possible one. BTW it is often better to translate dialogs (phrases used in particular situations), than words/sentences.
Of course, we can think of all possible word orders etc., but in this case the conversation may be endless. ))

Originally Posted by Zubr

Originally Posted by Zaya

Кстати, Zubr, ты девушка или парень? Скажи, пожалуйста, чтобы я знала, как к тебе обращаться (или напомни, если я уже спрашивала).

Also, did you use спрашивать because you were just supposing maybe you already asked? In case you knew you asked before, would you say "Я спросила уже давно, и потом забыла, ты девушка или парень. Ну, давай, скажи!"
(I'm not sure wether this needs some ли or not...)

Not, I wouldn't say this, some parts sound unnatural. )
(Yes, no "ли" here. Variants "ты парень или девушка" and "парень ты или девушка" are also possible.)

you were just supposing maybe you already asked?

Yes, I didn't remember if I had asked you this question. But even in case I knew I asked before I would use"спрашивала."
Кстати, Zubr, ты девушка или парень? Я знаю, я тебя уже когда-то спрашивала, но не помню, что ты ответил(а). Извини.
"Ну давай" would sound impolite in this situation (I asked and then forgot the answer, it's my fault, so I am expected to apologise, not to say sth like "c'mon, guy, say it to me"). "Давай" sounds OK when you want to hurry somebody.

Я парень, поэтому я выбрал имя "зубр" а не "зубровка".

Только не имя, а ник.
Интересно, ник водка уже кем-то занят?
I remember seeing here one guy with the nickname "белка" (not "бельчонок" or sth), so I just wanted to make sure.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Я парень, поэтому я выбрал имя "зубр" а не "зубровка".

Hmmm... Word "зубр" have some meanings in Russian. Direct meaning is wisent, indirect meaning is accepted expert, guru (usually an old one).

Originally Posted by Zubr

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Что мне делать? Как нам быть? Где мне поставить машину? Зачем тебе так долго спать?

Great. It seems these sentences remain grammatical if you remove the dative subject, right?

Right.

Zubrovka -белорусская водка

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Hmmm... Word "зубр" have some meanings in Russian. Direct meaning is wisent, indirect meaning is accepted expert, guru (usually an old one).

Good to know. По словарю, это также значит консервативный человек.

Originally Posted by Lingvo 12

nous ne mangerons pas un minot de sel ensemble
prov.
мы недолго будем вместе; нам с вами детей не крестить

Но я не знаю, насколько этот перевод точен. Je ne parle pas français. )

Originally Posted by Zaya

Но я не знаю, насколько этот перевод точен. Je ne parle pas français. )

Zaya, if you ever meet a frenchman who tells you this, and if the guy happens to be green and smelly, please remember this friendly advice: run, run for you life, for he is a 150-year-old zombie and very likely will eat your brain if he catches you. In fact, even if you are yourself a 150-year-old zombie, I think it's still safer to run away.
Also it seems the meanings are not exactly the same, because the french phrase means "We won't stay together that long" (doesn't imply that there won't be any business at all between the two). I guess that's what French Casanovas used to tell their friends about their last conquest met at the village ball, back then, 200 years ago.

Thanks, now it's clear.