Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Да здравствует грамматика Ленина!

  1. #1
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12

    Да здравствует грамматика Ленина!

    I saw a photo in a book yesterday of an exhibit at the Central Lenin Museum in Simbirsk. In the photo, there is a display that shows Lenin's handwriting, presumably as a school boy, which said "Зовут меня Владимир Ильич Ульянов. Родился я в Симбирске 10ом 1870 года" Obviously, I know what this means and I know that it's grammatically correct, since Russian isn't always as strict about word order as English but what I'm curious about is the way the sentance is composed. I've always said "Меня зовут... and Я родился" in that order. Is there a reason? Do we foreign speakers say it differently than the average Russian? Is it because it was written in childhood, was it a regional thing, or is there a special emphasis? Or is it simply Владимир Ильич's personal style or completely random?
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  2. #2
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Северо-Восточный Администритивный Округ.
    Posts
    3,471
    Rep Power
    15
    It doesn't have anything to do with him being a kid or his bad grammar or anything regional. I get the feeling hes trying to emphazise something. Exactly what could be hard to translate word for word into english. unfortunelately I can't Help you much further.
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

  3. #3
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    379
    Rep Power
    10
    I would say this word order creates a narrative feeling, akin to fairy tales... It is really hard to explain.... You can say that the verb gets emphasized rather than Я, but that doesn't really explain the feeling I get from reading the text...

  4. #4
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Северо-Восточный Администритивный Округ.
    Posts
    3,471
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM
    but that doesn't really explain the feeling I get from reading the text...
    Thats exactly what I was meaning to say. When you said emphasizing the verb more then Я its almost like hes saying "They call me Vladimir ilyich Ul'yanov". Even though меня зовут... Literally is "they call me" it is the equaivlant of like for example in english. "They call me Arnold, I am the governator of California". Instead of "My name is Arnold".


    Thats just the feeling that i get from it. Im probly completely and 100% wrong, which more often than not, the case turns out to be so.

    Anyways if i was going to translate it to english i would say something like "They call me Vladimir Il. Ul'yanov. Simbirsk is where I was born in the year of 1870". Almost like hes narating himself. Even at a young age, he knew he was destined for greatness
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

  5. #5
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    379
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogboy182
    Almost like hes narating himself.
    That's it Now, why he was writing in this way I don't know, but generally we (people coming from Russia) don't like stereotypes, so we are trying to say things differently every time That's why I am puzzled when someone asks me to give Russian words for Hi, or for typical Russian toast. I would be bored to death if I had to say cheers every time when raising glasses Of course, the best toasts come from Georgia, we are only bad imitators

  6. #6
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12
    Thanks for the replies, Dogboy and MikeM. That's a crazy nuance for a Westerner to get -- the same grammatical arrangement takes on a different tone when slightly rearranged. I do completely understand what you mean, though (good explanations that is to say). After reading this, I wonder if perhaps this was NOT written in childhood (a very cocky kid if so!), but rather later to add the an "epic" or "folksy" feeling to the Lenin story. The only reason I necessarily thought it was a child writing was b/c it was a)sloppy (but then again many adults have sloppy writing) and b)it seemed like such rudimentary sentances -- but when explained as a "narration," it's not so basic sounding (I just couldn't see V.I. Lenin starting a paper by saying "I'm Lenin. I was born in 1870" -- if someone did that they'd probably be laughed at).

    Update: Here's a pic I googled for, for those interested:
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  7. #7
    Завсегдатай mishau_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ордынская Московия
    Posts
    2,451
    Rep Power
    12
    If you try to make questions to that, you'll see that the answers start with the last word of each question.

    Как вас зовут? - Зовут меня Владимир Ильич Ульянов.
    Где вы родились? - Родился я в Симбирске.
    Где вы учились? - Учился я в Казанском университете.
    и т.п.

    So it might look Lenin was anwsering some supposed questions, it might be a sort of rhetorical style or something.
    English Edition

    В обычных странах церковь отделена от государства, а в России - от Бога.

  8. #8
    Почтенный гражданин
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    379
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    Here's a pic I googled for, for those interested
    1. This handwriting is definitely of an adult.
    2. It must have been edited to get rid of pre-reform letters.

  9. #9
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Северо-Восточный Администритивный Округ.
    Posts
    3,471
    Rep Power
    15
    Wow, thats an interesting picture. I'll sure have to add Simbirsk to my list of russian cities =).

    BTW glad I could help.
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

  10. #10
    Властелин
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Invalid City!
    Posts
    1,352
    Rep Power
    13
    Underneath the display, a little plaque reads:

    Было так мало бумаги и так немного карандашей тогда, что дети должны были писать свои упражнения на стенах зубной пастой.

  11. #11
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by mishau_
    If you try to make questions to that, you'll see that the answers start with the last word of each question.
    So it might look Lenin was anwsering some supposed questions, it might be a sort of rhetorical style or something.
    Typically though, if you're answering questions in Russian, you want to "get to the point," and supply the requested info right away, right? For instance "В Симбирске (я родился)," would be what the average Russian would say?

    I'll sure have to add Simbirsk to my list of russian cities =).
    Uhm... sure! I found this in a really odd little book called "Places Associated with Lenin in the Volga Region: an Illustrated Guidebook." It devotes about 200 pages to Simbirsk, Kazan, and Samara. I have no idea why anybody would write this or even buy it (except me, of course)


    Underneath the display, a little plaque reads:
    Было так мало бумаги и так немного карандашей тогда, что дети должны были писать свои упражнения на стенах зубной пастой.
    OK, I'm not sure whether to cringe at this (it's true) or laugh at this (it's a joke); I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't -- I'll either be really insensitive to their plight or an uptight blockhead, so I'll just be both:
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  12. #12
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Северо-Восточный Администритивный Округ.
    Posts
    3,471
    Rep Power
    15
    I would buy it. Lenin is THE MAN!
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

  13. #13
    Завсегдатай mishau_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ордынская Московия
    Posts
    2,451
    Rep Power
    12
    I'll sure have to add Simbirsk to my list of russian cities =).
    It's now called Ulianowsk (Ульяновск) where armed to the teeth policemen assault children.

    http://www.gazeta.ru/2005/12/27/last183280.shtml

    English Edition

    В обычных странах церковь отделена от государства, а в России - от Бога.

  14. #14
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by mishau_
    It's now called Ulianowsk (Ульяновск) where armed to the teeth policemen assault children.

    http://www.gazeta.ru/2005/12/27/last183280.shtml
    I'm not sure I got the entire article (did the juveniles actually DO something, or was this just a round-up of suspicious looking punks?), but I certainly got this:

    "Один из милиционеров, требуя от подростка поехать вместе с ним в отделение, на вопрос подростка: «По какому праву вы меня задерживаете?» - упер ствол пистолета ему в глаз и ответил: «Вот мое право!». "

    File that one somewhere between "Hasta la vista, baby!" and "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!"
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  15. #15
    Властелин
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Invalid City!
    Posts
    1,352
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley

    OK, I'm not sure whether to cringe at this (it's true) or laugh at this (it's a joke); I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't -- I'll either be really insensitive to their plight or an uptight blockhead, so I'll just be both:
    кто знает, как сказать "you must be sh*ting me!" на разговорном русском языке?

  16. #16
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Северо-Восточный Администритивный Округ.
    Posts
    3,471
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by mishau_
    It's now called Ulianowsk (Ульяновск) where armed to the teeth policemen assault children.
    Awesome. Just the way Lenin would have wanted it.
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

  17. #17
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    в небе
    Posts
    2,223
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by scotcher
    кто знает, как сказать "you must be sh*ting me!" на разговорном русском языке?
    I guess in one word - Пи*дишь! Stress is important here.

  18. #18
    Завсегдатай mishau_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ордынская Московия
    Posts
    2,451
    Rep Power
    12
    OK, I'm not sure whether to cringe at this (it's true) or laugh at this (it's a joke); I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't -- I'll either be really insensitive to their plight or an uptight blockhead, so I'll just be both:
    Of course it's wrong, Underneath the display there was a line


    Время было голодное. Хлеба на все не хватало, поэтому икру намазывали прямо на колбасу.

    English Edition

    В обычных странах церковь отделена от государства, а в России - от Бога.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: July 4th, 2008, 04:52 PM
  2. Replies: 66
    Last Post: February 21st, 2008, 05:08 PM
  3. Похороны Ленина
    By Бармалей in forum Translate This!
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: April 9th, 2006, 09:35 PM
  4. Историческая грамматика русского языка
    By FL in forum Говорим по-русски
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: January 21st, 2006, 06:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Russian Lessons                           

Russian Tests and Quizzes            

Russian Vocabulary