Thread: Будущее время: Perfective VS быть

Есть большая разница между:


Я буду понимать - Я пойму
Я буду брать - Я возьму
Ты будешь любить - Ты полюбишь

?

Я понимаю принципу что один из них совершенный и другой несовершенный...но если речь идёт о будущем, это действительно имеет значение? И если имеет значение, насколько значительно?

Кстати, мне однажды сказали что всегда лучше употреблять "совершенный", в противоположность "быть".... но не знаю хорошо ли совет...

А вы как думаете?

The difference is really blatant. When you use imperfective future tense construction that means a prolonged action.

Я буду понимать (всегда, каждую секунду, всю жизнь, весь день etc)

When you use future perfective construction that means a one-time action, one that happens quickly in the future at some time. In other words Future Perfect is for general simple actions

Я пойму (что-нибудь в какое-то время)

We use future perfect more, because we speak about something we will do just for once more often, so there's no need to show the action is a prolonged one. All that matters is information, the information that you will perform an action in the future some time.

However, sometimes we need to show that action is a long one.

Examine the folowing:

Завтра я буду танцевать и веселиться
vs
Завтра я потанцую и повеселюсь

The first one shows us that the person will be dancing and having fun for a good amount of time, like for the whole day, or some hours etc..
The second just gives us the information what the person is gonna do tomorrow, in substance, they're gonna dance and have fun, but the action is a one-time one, when the action takes place the action finishes. In other words the person stops dancing and having fun by the time the action occurs, and just gives us the information that they have danced and had fun.

Another example of using perfective and imperfective future tense is comparing two future actions. The action that will be done by some time is perfective, the action that will be in progress by that time is imperfective.

Examine these:

Когда я приду домой, жена будет готовить ужин - Wheh I've come home, my wife will be cooking a supper.
Я буду спать когда начнется игра - I'll be asleep when the game bigins.

Okay, the last use of the imperfective future tense I'm gonna show you is just an uncompleted action, in other words an action which is in progress.

Examine this:

- Завтра будет отличная вечеринка в 1:00 a.m, не хочешь пойти (the future perfect, because you just ask for the information) туда со мной?
- Я не могу, я буду работать (I still will be working by that time you mentioned)

"Я буду плакать и смеяться, когда усядусь в "Мерседес"

Иногда разница чувствуется, иногда большой разницы нет.
Погляди:
"После окончания нашего курса вы будете понимать, почему Солнце не только светит, но и греет".
Ну можно сказать: "На наших курсах вы поймёте, почему Солнце не только светит, но и греет".
А теперь:
"После окончания института вы станете врачами - будете лечить людей"
Сказать: "вы вылечите людей" - нельзя, это будет большим преувеличением
Именно "будете (пытаться) лечить".

The basic idea is the same - completed/uncompleted action. An iterative action (repeated multiple times) is considered uncompleted, although it may be completed for each single iteration, but the whole action is still ongoing as more and more iterations will occur.

So, if you mean iteration in Future (like with "каждый день" etc.), you always need imperfective (the compound form with "быть"): Я каждый день буду читать газеты. (Прочитаю is grammatically impossible for this occurence).
Otherwise, the choice is based on completeness.
Two more examples for you to compare:

1. - Что ты будешь делать сегодня вечером? - Я буду читать книгу.
It tells us what you are going to be occupied with: you will be in process of reading. It does not tell us if you are planning to finish the whole book this evening. Probably, it will take many evening for you to read the whole book, but you are just going "to be reading tonight".

2. - Я дарю тебе эту книгу.
- Спасибо, я её обязательно прочитаю.
Now it is perfective, you see? You promise that you will read the whole book, not just a few pages of it.

There are many nuances though. But the basic idea is the same as in the past tense.

PS Although it is very hard to explain the whole concept of the verbal aspect in a few words, I usually use the following explanation:
The aspects help you identify how you VIEW the action.
Imperfective - you view the action "from inside the very process", i.e. your "reference frame" is a moment within the period of action duration.
Perfective - you view the action "as a whole" "from outside", i.e. your "reference frame" is a moment beyond the period of action duration.

If you get what I mean I hope it can help. Try to apply this explanation to the examples above.

E.g.:
Я буду лечить людей (imperfective) - is a permanent state of your ability to treat people. You consider it as an on-going activity. When this time comes (in Future!), you will start treating people: tomorrow, after tomorrow, the other day etc. etc. So, you imagine yourself "in state of treating people".
Я вылечу человека (perfective) - is a whole single event you consider it from outside (when someone is already healthy thanks to your treatment). Here you focus on the result state, not on the process. When this time comes (in Future!), the person is finally well after all of your treatment. So, you imagine yourself "after successful treatment of a specific person".

One other question for native speakers: Do the points discussed above also apply to NEGATED future constructions, or are the rules a bit different if there's a не accompanying the verb? (After all, in a negated construction, the action is "non-completed" in any case!)

For example, as I understand things, if one wanted to say I won't have read (="have finished reading") this book by Thursday, then the choice of aspect would be clear -- future perfective is mandatory:

Я не прочитаю эту книгу к четвергу.

But when there's no specified time of completion, and one simply wants to say "I won't read the book," is there a difference between the following two?:

Я не прочитаю эту книгу.
Я не буду читать эту книгу.

I would interpret the imperfective construction as emphasizing "I am determined to never read this book under any circumstances" -- in other words, a negated imperfective future has some implication of никогда, ни за что!

On the other hand, I know that it's totally possible to use никогда with a negated future perfective (я никогда не забуду, for example).

So I'm interested to hear the opinions of natives about this.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One other question for native speakers: Do the points discussed above also apply to NEGATED future constructions, or are the rules a bit different if there's a не accompanying the verb? (After all, in a negated construction, the action is "non-completed" in any case!)

For example, as I understand things, if one wanted to say I won't have read (="have finished reading") this book by Thursday, then the choice of aspect would be clear -- future perfective is mandatory:

Я не прочитаю эту книгу к четвергу.

But when there's no specified time of completion, and one simply wants to say "I won't read the book," is there a difference between the following two?:

Я не прочитаю эту книгу.
Я не буду читать эту книгу.

I would interpret the imperfective construction as emphasizing "I am determined to never read this book under any circumstances" -- in other words, a negated imperfective future has some implication of никогда, ни за что!

On the other hand, I know that it's totally possible to use никогда with a negated future perfective (я никогда не забуду, for example).

So I'm interested to hear the opinions of natives about this.

Yes, you're adsolutely right.

Я не буду читать эту книгу -- I will never ever read the book
Я не буду его слушать - I will never ever listen to him

Я никогда не забуду - yes, that's perfect too, that's the way to emphasize that you will never forget something

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Я не прочитаю эту книгу.

This can be translated as
1. I will not be able to read(finish reading) this book. It's way too hard
2. I won't even start reading this book. 'Cause I don't feel like doing it.

Эти тонкости интересные. Я НЕ БУДУ забывать их

Я не прочитаю эту книгу.

This can be translated as
1. I will not be able to read(finish reading) this book. It's way too hard
2. I won't even start reading this book. 'Cause I don't feel like doing it.

Он умер и никогда больше не задымит своей самокруткой, распугивая всех комаров окрест.
He died and never will smoke his roll-your-own scaring away all the gnats in the vincity.
(Singular action)

И не будет нам больше рассказывать весёлые истории из своего детства вечерами сидя у костра.
And he never will be telling us funny stories from his childhood in evenings by the fire.
(Prolonged action)

Нам будет его не хватать.
(We'll miss him)
(Prolonged action)

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Я не буду читать эту книгу.

I would interpret the imperfective construction as emphasizing "I am determined to never read this book under any circumstances" -- in other words, a negated imperfective future has some implication of никогда, ни за что!

Yes, most often it expresses intention not necessarily so categorical. "I am not going to read this book" will do.

Though it is not only possible way.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

For example, as I understand things, if one wanted to say I won't have read (="have finished reading") this book by Thursday, then the choice of aspect would be clear -- future perfective is mandatory:

Я не прочитаю эту книгу к четвергу.

But when there's no specified time of completion, and one simply wants to say "I won't read the book," is there a difference between the following two?:

Я не прочитаю эту книгу.
Я не буду читать эту книгу.

I would interpret the imperfective construction as emphasizing "I am determined to never read this book under any circumstances" -- in other words, a negated imperfective future has some implication of никогда, ни за что!

On the other hand, I know that it's totally possible to use никогда with a negated future perfective (я никогда не забуду, for example).

Your examples are correct.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One other question for native speakers: Do the points discussed above also apply to NEGATED future constructions, or are the rules a bit different if there's a не accompanying the verb? (After all, in a negated construction, the action is "non-completed" in any case!)

So I'm interested to hear the opinions of natives about this.

Well, Robert, you know, the easiest thing for a native speaker would be just to comment a specific example, whether it sounds naturally or not. Or if there is any difference in meaning.

But you are asking a general question, and it is quite difficult to formalize some rules for it.

Originally Posted by Valda

Эти тонкости интересные. Я НЕ БУДУ забывать их

First I felt ready to say it is an incorrect usage. But later I changed my mind. So, let's try to examine this specific example.

As Robert noticed, "Я никогда не забуду" is the only correct option if taken out of context. At least, it is how it seems to be.
We usually say: "Я никогда не забуду тебя / свою первую любовь / твою доброту / это путешествие etc." In all those examples, there is a single thing which one promises to never forget. So, it can be (in possibility) only a single event of "forgetting" that thing. Let's imagine this possibility in the future timeline:

I remember Valda's help. -- I still remember Valda's help. -- I forget Valda's help. -- I do not remember Valda's help anymore

As you can see, the very moment of "forgetting" has zero time-duration, and it is a single event which separates the two states: "state of rememebering" and "state of non-remembering". And what the speaker actually does is that he promises this single event will never happen: Я никогда не забуду помощь Валды I think, it explains why the perfective is the only option for those examples.

However, Valda proposed another interesting example: "Я не буду забывать их". At least to me, it may seem unnatural at the first glance. However, later I found examples where it suits fine:
Imagine a child promises his mother: "Я не буду забывать чистить зубы по утрам" (I will never forget to clean my teeth in the morning).

What changed? The fact is this sort of "forgetting" is different from the first one. It is not something which you remember and then suddenly forget forever. It is something which can be forgotten to be done for a specific occurrence, but later one might not forget to do it etc.: on Monday I forget to clean my teeth, on Tuesday I remember, on Wednesday I remember, on Thursday I forget again

So, we face to the "imperfective iterative" in this case. By saying "Я не буду забывать чистить зубы по утрам" the child implies there will be no any single iteration when he forgets to do it, he will remember it every time he has to.

Therefore, Valda's phrase is correct if she means she will remember those subtleties everytime she speaks Russian: there will be no any single event I forget to use the proper verb aspect - that's what her sentence means.

Some more thought on negations:

Actually, I do not think that the negative sentences are a very special case of aspect usage. It seems the basic rules are the same, but there can be some nuances. Although I might be wrong...

Just some more examples:

Someone has got a trauma. A doctor reassures his spouse:
Не волнуйтесь, травма не опасная. Он не умрёт. - Do not worry, the trauma is not dangerous, he will not die.

Perfective is the only option here. Although "он не будет умирать" is grammatically possible, it is hardly ever used as it creates an impression that "he can die multiple times".

An opposite example. One decided to stop drinking alcohol, and he promises:
Я (больше) (никогда) не буду пить. - The words in brackets are optional: "I will not (ever) drink (anymore)".

The imperfective is the most suitable for this situation. However, "Я больше никогда не выпью" is also possible, but it creates the special effect when a speaker substitues "specific for general": he is talking about the future in general, but he refers to it as to a single specific event. And I'd say it does not sound as his firm decision not to drink ever, but rather as his regretting he will never have a drink anymore due to some external reason. It seems to be a more complicated stuff for advanced learners.

Moreover, the imperfective in this example is possible with or without additional words (as I mentioned above):
Я не буду пить. Я больше не буду пить. Я никогда не буду пить. Я больше никогда не буду пить. - All sound fine.
The perfective is only possible with "больше никогда". Just saying "Я не выпью" does not sound right in this context. It can be possible when talking about a specific event, but not about the future in general.

One more observation: future perfective negation is also used to express one's physical inability to perform an action:
Я столько не выпью! - I cannot drink so much!
Я не подниму такую тяжёлую вещь. - I am not able to lift such a heavy thing.
Я никогда не выучу арабский язык. - I feel I am not ever able to master Arabic.

On the contrary, using imperfective in those examples means one's unwillingness to do something:
Я не буду столько пить! - I will not dirnk so much (and do not want).
Я не буду поднимать такую тяжёлую вещь. - I will not lift such a heavy thing (since I do not want, not because I am unable to).
Я никогда не буду учить арабский язык. - I will never learn Arabic (I do not like the idea).