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Thread: без and genitive

  1. #1
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    без and genitive

    Hello Everybody,

    sorry for the stupid question, but:

    без always needs a genitive after?

    ex: он переводит без словаря

    One more question, Could anybody explain me the structure of the following sentence:
    ты сегодня выглядишь молодецом

    why has been used молодецом?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    без + genetive. Yes, that's it. Can;t think of an exception to this.

    ты сегодня выглядишь молодецом - This one is not right it should be:

    Ты сегодня выглядишь молодцом.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

  3. #3
    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacco22 View Post
    One more question, Could anybody explain me the structure of the following sentence:
    ты сегодня выглядишь молодецом

    why has been used молодецом?
    As iCake pointed out, the correct spelling is "молодцом" (and, similarly, the genitive singular is молодца, not молодеца; dat. sing. is молодцу, not молодецу, etc.)

    But to explain the grammar a little more: Russian typically uses the instrumental case after verbs that mean "to be, to become, to seem, to appear, to turn out to be," etc.

    При праздновании бар-мицвы, еврейский мальчик произносит, "Сегодня, я становлюсь мужчиной!"
    During the celebration of (his) bar mitzvah, a Jewish boy says, "Today, I become a man!"

    Remember that мужчина ("a man") is an example of a masculine noun that is feminine in appearance. That's why the instrumental singular ending is -ой here, not -ом as in молодец --> молодцом.

    Another example -- and notice that the past-tense verb is feminine (to agree with the nominative subject, not with the instrumental object, which is masculine here):

    Эта "собака" оказалась волком!
    That "dog" turned out to be a wolf!

    BUT

    Этот "волк" оказался собакой!
    That "wolf" turned out to be a dog!


    And finally, the original sentence:

    Сегодня ты выглядишь молодцом.
    You look excellent today. (Literally: "Today, you look like a truly excellent person.")
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

  4. #4
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Some prepositions are "lucky" in that they always demand a specific case,
    без - Genitive
    к - Dative
    о - Prepositional
    через - Accusative

    etc

    Some examples of Instrumental, demonstrating, that not only nouns, but also pronouns and adjectives behave in similar way.

    В своё время Сократ как-то мне сказал: «Женись непременно. Попадётся хорошая жена — станешь счастливым. Плохая — станешь философом». Не знаю, что лучше.
    © "Тот самый Мюнхгаузен"
    Наутилус Помпилиус - Марш левой ! | Текст и перевод песни
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Thanks a lot Throbert,

    it's very useful.

    to Resume:
    with verbs like be, become, seems, ... we must use the instrumental case, which ends in -ой for fem. and -ом for masc.
    For this example:
    оказалась (past tense verb - feminine) --> волком (instrumental - masculine) --> собака (nominative subject - feminine)

    is it correct?

  6. #6
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    we must use the instrumental case
    Yes.
    which ends in -ой for fem. and -ом for masc.
    Unfortunately, it's not always so simple.
    The ultimate Russian noun-endings list
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

  7. #7
    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacco22 View Post
    Thanks a lot Throbert,

    оказалась (past tense verb - feminine) --> волком (instrumental - masculine) --> собака (nominative subject - feminine)

    is it correct?
    The words are correct, but the word-order you've used seems a bit strange to me -- not wrong, but not quite like natural speech, either.

    Russian word-order is very flexible, and yet some word-orders are encountered much more often than others. Personally, I think that in this case it's best to have "оказалась" in the middle -- either "Волком оказалась собака" or "Собака оказалась волком." (There's possibly a slight difference in nuance, because in general, putting a word at the very end of a sentence can tend to emphasize it.)

    To me, the order "Оказалась волком собака" sounds like it should be a question, with a "?" at the end and a strong emphasis on the second "-а-" in the verb ("оказАлась волком собака?"), meaning "Did the dog in fact turn out to be a wolf?"
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

  8. #8
    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    В своё время Сократ как-то мне сказал: «Женись непременно. Попадётся хорошая жена — станешь счастливым. Плохая — станешь философом». Не знаю, что лучше.
    © "Тот самый Мюнхгаузен"
    A если не ошибаюсь, именно Сократа имел в виду Вольтер, когда раз он посоветовал какому-то "bi-curious" приятелю: "Спи мужчина однажды с мужчниой, он станет философом. Дважвды -- уже стал содомитом!"

    <---- Ксантиппа, бедняжка
    <----- Сократ (слева) вместе со неопознанным студентом
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

  9. #9
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    The words are correct, but the word-order you've used seems a bit strange to me -- not wrong, but not quite like natural speech, either.

    Russian word-order is very flexible, and yet some word-orders are encountered much more often than others. Personally, I think that in this case it's best to have "оказалась" in the middle -- either "Волком оказалась собака" or "Собака оказалась волком." (There's possibly a slight difference in nuance, because in general, putting a word at the very end of a sentence can tend to emphasize it.)

    To me, the order "Оказалась волком собака" sounds like it should be a question, with a "?" at the end and a strong emphasis on the second "-а-" in the verb ("оказАлась волком собака?"), meaning "Did the dog in fact turn out to be a wolf?"
    Собака оказалась волком is most neutral, otherwise, emphasis should fall on "волком".

    word-order might seem strange, but it works. Compare:
    "Не бывать вороне коровою,
    Не летать лягушатам под облаком!"
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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