Your service in the millitary? 2 years required?

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I look around me. Now, instead of war, we are talking about crime, am I right? What causes crime? Look at who commits the crime and you will see that 99% of violent crimes (murders, rapes, abuse, etc.) are committed by:

- Poor/despearte people (lack of social status/ lack of education)
- Mentally unstable people (victims of childhood crimes/ very bad social enviroment)
- "Bad" people (lack of education/ lack of stable social enviroment during life)

Of course you have exceptions like OJ, Micheal Jackson (although they were never proven guilty :roll: )

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Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I look around me. Now, instead of war, we are talking about crime, am I right? What causes crime? Look at who commits the crime and you will see that 99% of violent crimes (murders, rapes, abuse, etc.) are committed by:

- Poor/despearte people (lack of social status/ lack of education)
- Mentally unstable people (victims of childhood crimes/ very bad social enviroment)
- "Bad" people (lack of education/ lack of stable social enviroment during life)

Of course you have exceptions like OJ, Micheal Jackson (although they were never proven guilty :roll: )

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And how does that counter what I said about human nature and prove your point that it can be overcome? Take any civilized country, and you'll find the top and the bottom, they are kept apart by force, and this is the way it always is, whether it's a society of men, primates or other higher animals. Like Seinfeld said, all doctors cannot be the best, someone has to be the absolute worst. :wink: Just because the top is not getting their hands dirty and has police and other agencies to do the job for them doesn't mean that there is something particularly different about civilized societies vs uncivilized. Violence is always in the picture whether its obvious or not. The only way to create a totally violence-free society is to create a high-tech fascist state where everyone is so afraid of retribution that they behave.

Have you read "Lord of the Flies"

It's the nature of any creature to survive at all cost. Even innocent children are corrupted at heart.

I read it in translation long time ago. Excellent book.

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Originally Posted by adoc

And how does that counter what I said about human nature and prove your point that it can be overcome? Take any civilized country, and you'll find the top and the bottom, they are kept apart by force, and this is the way it always is, whether it's a society of men, primates or other higher animals. Like Seinfeld said, all doctors cannot be the best, someone has to be the absolute worst. :wink: Just because the top is not getting their hands dirty and has police and other agencies to do the job for them doesn't mean that there is something particularly different about civilized societies vs uncivilized. Violence is always in the picture whether its obvious or not. The only way to create a totally violence-free society is to create a high-tech fascist state where everyone is so afraid of retribution that they behave.

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The point is not to get rid of the "bottom", but to raise it to a "civilized" standard. The bottom does not always have to 1000 feet under water. The "worst" doctor does not have to mean he does not know his job or does a bad job. In a class where everybody gets "A" except for one person who gets "A-", does that "worst" student not understand the subject?

Besides, a poor person is not automatically a criminal.

бедность не порок!

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Besides, a poor person is not automatically a criminal.

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I never said that. However, ideas of raising the "bottom" to a "civilized" standard are not new and, whenever tried on a society scale, always failed. Take for example the infamous Lenin's experiment called the USSR. I have to go now, time for sports, see you later.

Pasifists might be utopists, but you, my friend, are a defeatist :wink:

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

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Originally Posted by adoc

And how does that counter what I said about human nature and prove your point that it can be overcome? Take any civilized country, and you'll find the top and the bottom, they are kept apart by force, and this is the way it always is, whether it's a society of men, primates or other higher animals. Like Seinfeld said, all doctors cannot be the best, someone has to be the absolute worst. :wink: Just because the top is not getting their hands dirty and has police and other agencies to do the job for them doesn't mean that there is something particularly different about civilized societies vs uncivilized. Violence is always in the picture whether its obvious or not. The only way to create a totally violence-free society is to create a high-tech fascist state where everyone is so afraid of retribution that they behave.

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The point is not to get rid of the "bottom", but to raise it to a "civilized" standard. The bottom does not always have to 1000 feet under water. The "worst" doctor does not have to mean he does not know his job or does a bad job. In a class where everybody gets "A" except for one person who gets "A-", does that "worst" student not understand the subject?

Besides, a poor person is not automatically a criminal.

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Your discourse resembles me the works of early socialists-utopists and latter communists.
The goal is to build a "civilized" society where everybody and everyone will be happy.
Human vices, however, had always prevailed over that as history shows. Greed, pride, lust and other passions have been always interfering with the grand plan. To compel such people into obedience the institution of law and law enforcement was born. Law enforcement has introduced a term of justified violence but laws would never cover every and all aspects of human life so the more strict will be the laws the more loose will be the whole institution. There have to be some critical point of all that beyond which lies a complete new approach to the terms of "state" and "law".

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Pasifists might be utopists, but you, my friend, are a defeatist :wink:

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On the contrary, I adapt. Otherwise I'd be stranded somewhere in Russia drinking my sorrows away. :lol:

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Besides, a poor person is not automatically a criminal.

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Any good criminal is wildly rich. New Russians, for example.

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Originally Posted by basurero

бедность - не порок!

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Originally Posted by adoc

The only way to create a totally violence-free society is to create a high-tech fascist state where everyone is so afraid of retribution that they behave.

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Sorry, but simply the existence of such a repressive state is violence, the mentioned threat of retribution is violence. No pacifist in his right mind would call it a totally violence-free society. The denial of violence should be in people's hearts, there's no other way. I believe that it's possible to develop this denial in most people, it just requies a lot of time and probably some methods we are unaware of. But I'm just an utopist after all :)

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Originally Posted by Dimitri

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Originally Posted by basurero

бедность - не порок!

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Это устойчивое выражение, не нуждающееся в тире.

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

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Originally Posted by Dimitri

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Originally Posted by basurero

бедность - не порок!

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Это устойчивое выражение, не нуждающееся в тире.

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Можно ставить, а можно нет. Но лучше ставить.

Думаешь basusero знает, что это устойчивое выражение? Сомневаюсь.
Надо смысл понимать где тире ставить