Well, at least these posts are well thought out and with actual content, not just random BS as some people ( :wink: ) keep posting!
Hey, don't look at me like that! :lol:
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Well, at least these posts are well thought out and with actual content, not just random BS as some people ( :wink: ) keep posting!
Hey, don't look at me like that! :lol:
A good example of random BS:
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/viewtop ... c&start=15
:lol:
And risk having him sue (lawyer wallet rape/enslave) you? Shoot to kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackMage
If you shoot someone in your doorway, make sure they fall INTO the house too.
You have to prove that there was a credible threat on your life in ordert to kill someone, however you only have to believe there's a reasonable threat to shoot him in the knee.Quote:
Originally Posted by capecoddah
You'll be surprised but I care about people.Quote:
Originally Posted by adoc
Me too, only very few...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
In nearly four years and several different commands, I have never met anyone in the service whom I can say is actually corrupt. If you knew even half the people that I do, I think you'd have a different view of the U.S. military. :!: Most of us didn't join to kill people, believe it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne
But I think of not only my surroundings...Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackMage
I have a very positive view of the U.S. Military. Keep up the good work!Quote:
Originally Posted by Moryachka
The main message I get from this thread, is what nice and caring people you all are. :)
Sadly, all this is neither about patriotism, or about evil, or about defending your country.
These days, it's about money.
All the rest is propaganda used by the people who are at the receiving end of that money line, to make people do what they want them to do, i.e. go to war - because war makes money.
Try putting up the graphics of stock markets against a graph of historical facts - you'll see that the only thing that really makes money, is war. :cry:
That is why the US invaded Iraq (Wot, "dictator"? Hundreds of dictators in this world!), will invade Iran later this year, and why Korea is probably next (if I remember right, about 2008). They need war to keep their economy going. :(
And they're not the only ones. :roll:
And personally, I don't think the human being is evil per se. I think every single human being is basically selfish, yes, and searches to be happy, that's all. Unfortunately, there are those that think that wealth and power will make them happy - and that is why they do evil things. :| :(
Sad really - cuz wealth and power (alone) does not make you happy. (although a little bit of wealth would help pay the bills, of course :lol: :lol: :lol: )
My grandfather was an army colonel, and the most convinced pacifist I ever knew. He was the one who was most adamant about teaching us kids about the senselessness of war, and about respect for other people, no matter what their status.
But he fought WWII, not because he wanted to, but because he had no choice. (Sometimes we don't. I'm with our friend Tolstoi on this one: history takes its course, no matter what - and we little humans can but follow, and try to limit the damage.)
So he deffo wasn't spineless ;)
Neither were Ghandi or Martin Luther King for that matter.
On the contrary, I think you have to be extremely strong to be a pacifist. Being a pacifist doesn't mean running away when things get hot - and standing up for your ideas and principles without immediately retorting to violence is a very powerful thing.
Actually, I don't like thinking about all this. :(
Wouldn't it be nice if everybody could just get along. *sigh*
PS: have I used up all the letters of the Internet again? :?
Хорошо сказано, Баба Яга.. Я согласен с твоим доводом больше всего! :D
I am not suprized. What I was trying to say in another post is that in the end it is not really up to you what you'll do when you face the dilemma. All these words about good and evil and self control on the population level are nothing. It's akin saying, why people dont just refuse to get cancer. It's in their nature, end of story, without mechanisms triggering cancer you wont be able to heal wounds or even develop. You remove the natural ability (whatever it is) "surgically", the population doesn't survive. We need agression, it's our instrument to survival in a general sense, paradoxical as it may sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
Argh, it's such a complicated issue isn't it... I don't know who I agree with more....
The US millitary aint corrupt you texanQuote:
Originally Posted by Layne
I really doubt it. We simply are not strong enough, and Iraq war has shown it too clearly to the whole world.Quote:
Originally Posted by BabaYaga
We can bomb шыт out of Iran (our oil is there though, so we cannot afford it) but we are not strong enough to invade it.
People have much stronger opinions about stuff like this. I mean, linguistic stuff is pretty firm. Not much room for opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh
*LOL* - I count bombing the шит out of a country as an invasion too ;)
But maybe I should rephrase it to "attack", OK? ;)
Not so simple. No one in US military really wants to die for his country. NO ONE. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh
Because every military campaign of U.S.A. was offensive. Americans have always been agressors (in a neutral meaning of this word, i.e. they have always fought abroad. It's simply due to the geographical location). So every soldier had fought just because he was in the army and in army men supposed to shoot another men their commanders designated as an enemy.
Quite another issue is when a man fights because some armed men has come to his place and threaten to ruin his life and claim his land. He fights to the death. To a last bullet and to the last drop of blood. He'll tear the enemy with his teeth and bare hands.
Americans don't hate their enemies, they're just doing the job when pulling the trigger. They're more organized, better armed, have an efficient commandment but just one thing remains that they can't cope with - the human hatred against them.
Newsflash: nobody wants to die, period. Yet people have done so for many, many years in the service of their country. They will continue to do so, sadly. As you admit, people sign up voluntarily every day to do just that -- otherwise we couldn't fight all those "offensive" wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Really? I wasn't aware that the French and Indian War (ok, technically not American, but close enough), the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the American Civil War were fought abroad. New Orleans is where? And when they burned down the White House, that was what country? Gettysburg isn't an American town? Bunker Hill is a trendy part of London? I think not.:roll:Quote:
Because every military campaign of U.S.A. was offensive. Americans have always been agressors (in a neutral meaning of this word, i.e. they have always fought abroad. It's simply due to the geographical location).
Yes we do. We absolutely hated the British, we hated the Nazis and Japanese, and we still do hate these terrorist douchebags. Note that those first three are now steadfast allies -- hopefully the states that the douchebags hail from eventually become so as well. And the human hatred against you allege is just natural -- you can't win 'em all.Quote:
Americans don't hate their enemies, they're just doing the job when pulling the trigger. They're more organized, better armed, have an efficient commandment but just one thing remains that they can't cope with - the human hatred against them.
Very well said, Rtyom. It always makes me cringe when it's being said everywhere how our people lack patriotism, how it is one of the main things we should teach children and so on, just teach them to respect human individuals and the human life (well I'm oversimplifying here and there are much more things to teach them, but you see the point), this will make them good people without such artificial ideals like patriotism. Actually, I believe that there's a natural patriotism - that is an unconscious attachment of a person to the places he spends a lot of time at (some people have more of it, some have less, some have none at all) and there's nothing wrong with it unless it's turned into a sort of cult which happens quite often, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
And yes, I am a pacifist. I don't think it's possible to get rid of the military in an eye-blink (at least considering the state of mind of most people) but I believe in gradual disarmament and really hope that this is the way will be no armies in the long run. That said I do believe that most people in the military of any country are good and well-intended (except for those who initiate the war) even if we disagree about a lot of things. I also don't think it's a possible to not use violence at all (again, considering the current state of people's minds) but it should be kept to minimum as much as possible. For example we may need to use some violence to catch a criminal but as soon as he is caught, all violence directed at him should be stopped immediately, however what we often see (on TV) is that even when he is caught and handcuffed the police continue to beat him.
I think just the fact that the support of G.W. Bush has decreased a lot is a good proof of that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
I believe almost everyone happened to have some aggression in them at some point, but how many of them would kill because of that? Not many, I think. So I don't think that aggression alone is the reason that non-violent choice doesn't prevail. I think the answer about that reason, to a large extent, lies in Baba Yaga's post.Quote:
Originally Posted by adoc
Of course nobody wants to die but sometimes you have to. :( The main thing at that is - whatever for? I wonder whether any of american soldiers killed in Iraq had discovered that reason for themselves before they have died?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
What did those soldiers die for? To secure the world's prices in oil market? The goal justifies the means indeed.
Really? I wasn't aware that the French and Indian War (ok, technically not American, but close enough), the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the American Civil War were fought abroad. New Orleans is where? And when they burned down the White House, that was what country? Gettysburg isn't an American town? Bunker Hill is a trendy part of London? I think not.:roll: [/quote]Quote:
Because every military campaign of U.S.A. was offensive. Americans have always been agressors (in a neutral meaning of this word, i.e. they have always fought abroad. It's simply due to the geographical location).
Well, I meant 20-th century and I was trying to illustrate the notion that americans didn't fight for their homes, families and children in the most wars of the past century. Of course when you fought brits or were butchering each other in the civil war it was quite another matter. But since then - you've lived perfectly safe an ocean far from the most disasterous events in the human history. Maybe that's why it is so that you've gone searching for adventures elsewhere.
Yes we do. We absolutely hated the British, we hated the Nazis and Japanese, and we still do hate these terrorist douchebags.Quote:
Americans don't hate their enemies, they're just doing the job when pulling the trigger. They're more organized, better armed, have an efficient commandment but just one thing remains that they can't cope with - the human hatred against them.
[/quote]
Who we? American nation is a quite heterogeneus mass. There ARE people in USA who actually have celebrated 9.11.
And the US army is not an exception from the overall statistical rule.
They fight for their land and their lives. Americans fight for a salary.Quote:
Note that those first three are now steadfast allies -- hopefully the states that the douchebags hail from eventually become so as well. And the human hatred against you allege is just natural -- you can't win 'em all.
If that's what you meant, then your logic is even more flawed. Americans didn't remain unexposed from the disasters of the 20th century. Americans liberated concentration camps, died in France, Germany, and Europe and Asia more generally, and died in New York City on 9/11. To suggest that because we live between the Atlantic and Pacific it means we have no idea what pain, suffering, and oppression are is absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Of course it's a "heterogenous mass," as you put it, and of course that's dumbing it down. I only continued to do so because that's how you started framing the argument. And yeah, there were people who celebrated 9/11 here. There were probably about 10 of them and they're total jackasses. I don't know what "statisical rule" you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Right. No other armed body in this world fights for money -- they do it for free. :roll: I suppose you'd rather have forced conscription with virtually no salary? Oh wait, that's the Russian army... :roll: That's really worked out well... I guess that's why they're phasing that out and going to a volunteer force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Are they? I weep for joy inside for young Russians (men only?).
I would more readily die for something than kill a stranger for it in most cases.
The choice doesnt prevail because there is no choice to start with. Did you choose to be born a female? If you were born a boy, then a) it wouldn't be you b) your thinking and priorities would be entirely different. They are the way you're programmed genetically and the way you are raised (pretty much programmed again). I see no particular freedom here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendy
As for the ideals, we all know a society that in the beginning of the 20th century attempted to follow ideals (aka communist ideals) rather than reality. We also know how well that went. I'd rather let people let their steam out gradually than eventually have a WW3, with a nuclear arsenal this time. Or it will happen and we go extinct, big deal, just another species that outlived itself.
Something is predetermined. But this is the basis for us, to aim us at development and not at counter-development. Our life consists of a good deal of choices! Not to have a positive advantage of it is a sin. However, putting aside this idea is a choice in itself too. Aggression never brings something good for both sides. And when the majority of people ceases aggressing there won't be any threat of WWIII.
I don't believe that your human nature can not be overcome. That is what civilization is all about. I am Norwegian, 1100 years ago my fellow genetics went on rape, pillage and burn raids all over Europe. I can control my rape, pillage and burn emotions. It is a matter of proper education and social enviroment, that's all. If I was born in Palestine, and everybody tells me from the day I was born that Jews are evil, I will believe it and hate them until I blow myself up.
They fight for their lives and the lives of those they love rather than money. They fight because if they don't they are screwed, they don't have a choice. All an American has to do is not join the army, and then there isn't the possibility of a bomb falling on their head in their sleep. A lot of Americans don't even believe in the war. It's not like their wife and children back in America could be killed at any moment by a stray bullet....Quote:
Right. No other armed body in this world fights for money -- they do it for free.
And the other lot of Americans would disagree. They would say bombs WOULD fall on their heads (in forms of hijacked planes, for example) if we weren't fighting the terrorists somewhere else. Their wives and children would be sniped by some idiot in a car.
Yes but it's not on the same level. Most of them wouldn't be able to imagine that happening to them. It's not something that happens every day in America, it's a possibility of what COULD happen, not what DOES happen.
Does downtown Washington = Baghdad? No way. Of course, it's not as dangerous at any given moment as those poor people who are just caught in the middle. But I assure you it IS something that is on people's minds. What you have to understand is that our dilemma security-wise is this: we're too good. I don't say that in a pompous way, but it's true. No country/idiotic group is going to engage in a conventional head-to-head battle with the US military, because it's impossible to win. The only means that DOES give them a chance of success is to attack in non-conventional ways and against non-conventional targets. So there's the rebuttal to your question. We don't expect a repeat of the British ravaging the White House any time soon, but, guess what: a handful of filth can crash planes into a building or release biological weapons and reek havoc on a country.Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
As for your differentiating between what does/could happen, you're right. We are very fortunate not to have daily bombings rocking our capital. But at the same time, I think the history here is very clear: these things do happen and they can be catastrophic. I hate to keep bringing up 9/11, but it's absolutely something that is very real here, to this day.
In any case, I'm not going to post further on this topic -- I've told you why, and I've already wasted enought time on it. But I would like to say that I appreciate the fact that this has been conducted in such a civilized fashion. So often these things erupt into massive flamewars and that's yet to happen here -- let's keep it that way!
I see your point. I'm also not going to argue anymore about this, as being lucky enough not to live in America, I can't possibly understand what it's like over there right now and how average people feel about these issues... and the same goes for Baghdad.
LOL "lucky enough not to live in America"! That pretty much sums how big of a misconception you have of this country. :lol:
lol, I put that in because I thought it would be funny to see how you'd react...:D Anyway, I'd say I have a bigger understanding of America than some other people here, seeing as I have lived there before and both my parents grew up there, although I admit I'm no expert
One really doesn't understand America after only spending a few months or even a few years there. Many Americans have spent there whole lives in America and still don't understand America (think Britany Spears here). It all depends on what you allow to influence you. If your influence is pop culture/university/PBS centered you will not understand the "big picture" and end up hating America.
After returning to Australia I have found that Australians generally have no clue as to what America is all about and that their most common resources for information is biased and sometimes outright untruthful when depicting the USA.
While there are tons of people who are totally ignorant, even the semi-informed are often flat wrong. For example, (I'm afraid I'm assuming a great deal of political knowledge) if you were told that the budget defecit during the Reagan administration was due to Reagan's tax cuts, you'd probably believe me.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
Actually, income tax revenue increased as a result of the tax cuts, we just spent waaaay too much money trying to beat Communism.
Along similar lines, most liberal voters believe that 'conservatives' (Republicans) want big business to trample the poor masses. On the contrary, we just feel that a limited government involvement and low taxes allows the free-market system to better work to everyone's advantage, for example by offering tax incentives for job creation etc.
With me Blackmage, you are preaching to the choir.
The notion is sweet but look around you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
actually it was the spread of christianity that tamed (or ruined) the vikings.......and the rest of europe for that matter.
But safe nevertheless with the possible exception of Pearl Harbour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
Yes they did. Moreover they've been shipping war goods to allies and generally were a providing valuable help in defeating Germany and Japan. But there had been also Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Yugoslavia etc. What have they been fighting for in these wars?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
That's speaks much of you personally, which I appreciate, but not of the whole nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
Statistical rule is simple - Since there are people in America whose moral principles are not quite right, there bound to be such people in US military also, for the army is a part of the nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
As russian proverb says: Every family has a freak of its own.
That's beside the point. So called "Enemies of America" HAVE things to fight for except money. America just got used to secure its ambitions by force if necessary. Live and let others live the way they prefer and nobody will hate you and bomb with hijacked planes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmaley
I look around me. Now, instead of war, we are talking about crime, am I right? What causes crime? Look at who commits the crime and you will see that 99% of violent crimes (murders, rapes, abuse, etc.) are committed by:Quote:
Originally Posted by adoc
- Poor/despearte people (lack of social status/ lack of education)
- Mentally unstable people (victims of childhood crimes/ very bad social enviroment)
- "Bad" people (lack of education/ lack of stable social enviroment during life)
Of course you have exceptions like OJ, Micheal Jackson (although they were never proven guilty :roll: )