Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: World War II/Великая Отечественная Война

  1. #1
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    15

    World War II/Великая Отечественная Война

    OK, here's a rather silly question, perhaps. Setting aside for a moment the general veracity and utility of Wikipedia (I don't really want to get into that debate :: ), I'm curious to know about a perceived discrepancy there. I have always been told/assumed that World War II (Вторая Мированая Война) = Великая Отечественная Война. For whatever reason, I was cruising Wikipedia one day and found that in the Russian versions of these listings (which I will link to below), ВМВ ran from 39'-45', whereas ВОВ (can you say these in Russian btw as abbreviations or do they exist?) ran from 41'-45'. Which brings me to my question: what's up here?
    -Is this just a plain error?
    -Is this just the result of two different authors who happened to post different dates?
    -Or, is it something more: is Вторая Мированая Война considered to have been the "global" war, including the actions by Germany in Czechslovakia, for example (ie prior to the Russian entry into the war) while Великая Отечественная Война is considered to be really just the Russian involvement in the war (that is, the patriotic defense of the Homeland only)?

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1% ... 0%BD%D0%B0

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0% ... 0%BD%D0%B0
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  2. #2
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    18
    pretty simple explanation when you think about it

    World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
    The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined That was your third option I believe!

    BTW: The official date of the start of WWII is the invasion of Poland, that is when France and England declared war.
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  3. #3
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    pretty simple explanation when you think about it

    World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
    The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined
    So my last explanation was correct then, eh?
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  4. #4
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    18
    Yes, I just noticed that
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  5. #5
    Почётный участник
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Shoval, Israel
    Posts
    75
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: World War II/Великая Отечественная Война

    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley
    I have always been told/assumed that World War II (Вторая Мировая Война) = Великая Отечественная Война. For whatever reason, I was cruising Wikipedia one day and found that in the Russian versions of these listings (which I will link to below), ВМВ ran from 39'-45', whereas ВОВ (can you say these in Russian btw as abbreviations or do they exist?) ran from 41'-45'.
    ВОВ is quite a common abbreviation.
    ВМВ isn't common, but IMO it's perfectly legal.

  6. #6
    Почтенный гражданин capecoddah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cape Cod, MA пляж
    Posts
    648
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    pretty simple explanation when you think about it

    World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
    The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined That was your third option I believe!

    BTW: The official date of the start of WWII is the invasion of Poland, that is when France and England declared war.
    What's with the "Fatherland" bit? I thought we cleared this up a couple months ago. Mother Russia etc...
    Here is a Motherland statue in Volgograd


    The monument: An indoor shrine to the fallen topped by one of the largest statues on earth.

    Why to go: The Nazis, with their audaciously stupid notions of racial superiority, never understood the Russians. It was a failure that cost them the war. By late 1941, after the Wehrmacht had demolished several Russian armies and had captured 3 million prisoners of war, the Germans were convinced that they were on the verge of victory over the Soviet Union. (cut and pasted quotes)


    Happy May Day.
    I'm easily amused late at night...

  7. #7
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sunnyvale, Cali
    Posts
    5,771
    Rep Power
    18
    I am still convinced that:
    отечество = Fatherland
    родина = Motherland (Homeland)

    But, it is probably just me being silly again.
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  8. #8
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Seventh
    Posts
    4,113
    Rep Power
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by capecoddah
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    pretty simple explanation when you think about it

    World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
    The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined That was your third option I believe!

    BTW: The official date of the start of WWII is the invasion of Poland, that is when France and England declared war.
    What's with the "Fatherland" bit? I thought we cleared this up a couple months ago. Mother Russia etc...
    Here is a Motherland statue in Volgograd


    The monument: An indoor shrine to the fallen topped by one of the largest statues on earth.

    Why to go: The Nazis, with their audaciously stupid notions of racial superiority, never understood the Russians. It was a failure that cost them the war. By late 1941, after the Wehrmacht had demolished several Russian armies and had captured 3 million prisoners of war, the Germans were convinced that they were on the verge of victory over the Soviet Union. (cut and pasted quotes)


    Happy May Day.
    Because Великая Отечесвенная Война = Great Patriotic War

    What's the root of Patriotic in English? What's the root of Paternal?

    The Russian word Отечесвенный shares its root with Отец (father).

    And we never cleared it up a couple of months ago.

    What Western Media called "Defender of the Motherland Day" in Russian is actually defender of the Fatherland day. Отечесво is the word used in this title. Again it comes from the word Отец (Father), and therefore is Fatherland.

    Also in the Soviet and Modern Russian anthem, the chorus goes Славься, Отечество наше свободное (Be praised, our free Fatherland).


    The Statue you are talking about in Volgograd is called in Russian "Родина-мать зовёт!" Mother Land Сalls! (you can even call it Mother Motherland Calls!).

    Родина in itself can be translated as motherland since it is a feminine nouns.

    So it's "Defender of the Fatherland Day", and the statue is called Mother Land.
    Ingenting kan stoppa mig
    In Post-Soviet Russia internet porn downloads YOU!

  9. #9
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Serving Polonium-flavoured Sake at a London Japanese Restaurant
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    15
    I agree with TATY. And just for the heck of it, I'll share my very slight knowledge of Russian with you all and note that there's also the term материк, which is what those poor souls living out in the middle of Yakutia or in Chukotka or Sakhalin or wherever call the "Russian mainland."
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  10. #10
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Seventh
    Posts
    4,113
    Rep Power
    18
    In the West we are always saying "Mother Russia" and stuff.

    What is this in Russian, or don't they actually say it.

    I can only think of Родина, but that's more "Motherland", since it doens't mention Russia.
    Ingenting kan stoppa mig
    In Post-Soviet Russia internet porn downloads YOU!

  11. #11
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    5,073
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by TATY
    In the West we are always saying "Mother Russia" and stuff.

    What is this in Russian, or don't they actually say it.

    I can only think of Родина, but that's more "Motherland", since it doens't mention Russia.
    Well, there is expression "матушка-Россия".

  12. #12
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Seventh
    Posts
    4,113
    Rep Power
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
    Quote Originally Posted by TATY
    In the West we are always saying "Mother Russia" and stuff.

    What is this in Russian, or don't they actually say it.

    I can only think of Родина, but that's more "Motherland", since it doens't mention Russia.
    Well, there is expression "матушка-Россия".
    How often is it used?
    Ingenting kan stoppa mig
    In Post-Soviet Russia internet porn downloads YOU!

  13. #13
    Почтенный гражданин capecoddah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cape Cod, MA пляж
    Posts
    648
    Rep Power
    13
    WOW! What a can of worms I opened up...
    From the Russian Embassy:
    February 23 Protector of Motherland Day
    http://www.russianembassy.org
    Embassy of the Russian Federation
    Joe Stalin single-handedly won The Great War. Right, OK...
    Fun from the movie "PATTON"

    Translator: The general would like to know if you will drink a toast with him.
    Patton: Thank the general and tell him I have no desire to drink with him or any other Russian son of a bitch.
    Translator: [Nervous] I can't tell him that!
    Patton: Tell him, every word.
    Translator: [In Russian] He says he will not drink with you or any Russian son of a bitch.
    Russian general: [In Russian] Tell him he is a son of a bitch, too. Now!
    Translator: [Very nervous] He says he thinks you are a son of a bitch, too.
    Patton: [Laughing] All right. All right, tell him I'll drink to that; one son of a bitch to another.

    I'll drink to you collective sons of a bitches too!
    (son of a bitch translation please? суки I know)
    I'm easily amused late at night...

  14. #14
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Seventh
    Posts
    4,113
    Rep Power
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by capecoddah
    WOW! What a can of worms I opened up...
    From the Russian Embassy:
    February 23 Protector of Motherland Day
    http://www.russianembassy.org
    Embassy of the Russian Federation
    Joe Stalin single-handedly won The Great War. Right, OK...
    Fun from the movie "PATTON"

    Translator: The general would like to know if you will drink a toast with him.
    Patton: Thank the general and tell him I have no desire to drink with him or any other Russian son of a bitch.
    Translator: [Nervous] I can't tell him that!
    Patton: Tell him, every word.
    Translator: [In Russian] He says he will not drink with you or any Russian son of a bitch.
    Russian general: [In Russian] Tell him he is a son of a bitch, too. Now!
    Translator: [Very nervous] He says he thinks you are a son of a bitch, too.
    Patton: [Laughing] All right. All right, tell him I'll drink to that; one son of a bitch to another.

    I'll drink to you collective sons of a bitches too!
    (son of a bitch translation please? суки I know)
    I don't care what the Russian embassey calls it.

    Let's look at the facts:

    1. In Russian the period where Russian was at war with the Nazis (1941-45) is called:

    Великая Отечественная Война

    Великая - Great
    Война - War
    Отечественная

    Let's look at some dictionaries:
    Click here for Lingvo

    What does it says? Отечественная война - Patriotic war? Why, yes it does.

    Отечественный - patriotic (incase your English is as bad as your Russian, Patr- means to do with the father. E.g. Paternal)
    Отец - Father
    Отчесвто - Patronymic (as in 'name derived from father's name')

    And this day that everyone is calling "Defender of the Motherland" is in Russian:

    День защитника Отечества

    Clearly the word is derived from Отец - Father.

    And finally here are 449 hits for "Defender of the Motherland"
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... d%22&meta=

    And

    658 hits for "Defender of the Fatherland"
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... d%22&meta=

    Also this page from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland
    "the Russians, as Otechestvo or Otchizna, although Rodina, that is Motherland, is more common."


    Look at Russia on the list? What does it say?
    Motherland = Родина.
    Fatherland = Отечество

    And what is the name of the day called in Russian again?

    День защитника Отечества

    And let's look at the Soviet National Anthem:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ant ... ial_lyrics

    "Славься, Отечество наше свободное"

    And how is that translated into English?

    "Glory to our free Fatherland".


    And how did that line go in the English version of the Soviet Anthem, endorsed by the Communist Party for use by English speaking communists?

    "Sing to the Fatherland, home of the free,"

    I. Rest. My. Case.
    Ingenting kan stoppa mig
    In Post-Soviet Russia internet porn downloads YOU!

  15. #15
    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Other Universe
    Posts
    8,499
    Rep Power
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by capecoddah
    WOW! What a can of worms I opened up...
    From the Russian Embassy:
    February 23 Protector of Motherland Day
    http://www.russianembassy.org
    Embassy of the Russian Federation
    Joe Stalin single-handedly won The Great War. Right, OK...
    Fun from the movie "PATTON"

    Translator: The general would like to know if you will drink a toast with him.
    Patton: Thank the general and tell him I have no desire to drink with him or any other Russian son of a bitch.
    Translator: [Nervous] I can't tell him that!
    Patton: Tell him, every word.
    Translator: [In Russian] He says he will not drink with you or any Russian son of a bitch.
    Russian general: [In Russian] Tell him he is a son of a bitch, too. Now!
    Translator: [Very nervous] He says he thinks you are a son of a bitch, too.
    Patton: [Laughing] All right. All right, tell him I'll drink to that; one son of a bitch to another.

    I'll drink to you collective sons of a bitches too!
    (son of a bitch translation please? суки I know)
    son of a bitch - сукин сын.

    Родина - is from the word род - so it is a place (or a country) where you was born.
    Mother Russia - матушка Россия (Россия-матушка)
    Fatherland - отечество
    Send me a PM if you need me.

  16. #16
    Почтенный гражданин capecoddah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cape Cod, MA пляж
    Posts
    648
    Rep Power
    13
    Thank you Ramil, I was close. I'll drink with you, ya SOB!
    I'm easily amused late at night...

  17. #17
    Завсегдатай
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    My Time & Space
    Posts
    6,555
    Rep Power
    19
    Ай да Пушкин, ай да сукин сын...
    «И всё, что сейчас происходит внутре — тоже является частью вселенной».

Similar Threads

  1. Великая Фаина Гeоргиевна Рaневская
    By Lampada in forum Culture and History
    Replies: 93
    Last Post: June 27th, 2022, 10:04 PM
  2. это не «Война и Мир» и никогда ей не будет!
    By Trzeci_Wymiar in forum Grammar and Vocabulary
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: January 30th, 2010, 08:21 PM
  3. Replies: 271
    Last Post: September 21st, 2009, 03:15 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: June 5th, 2006, 11:28 AM
  5. Война
    By Dogboy182 in forum Culture and History
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: March 11th, 2004, 12:17 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Russian Lessons                           

Russian Tests and Quizzes            

Russian Vocabulary