World War II/Великая Отечественная Война

OK, here's a rather silly question, perhaps. Setting aside for a moment the general veracity and utility of Wikipedia (I don't really want to get into that debate :;): ), I'm curious to know about a perceived discrepancy there. I have always been told/assumed that World War II (Вторая Мированая Война) = Великая Отечественная Война. For whatever reason, I was cruising Wikipedia one day and found that in the Russian versions of these listings (which I will link to below), ВМВ ran from 39'-45', whereas ВОВ (can you say these in Russian btw as abbreviations or do they exist?) ran from 41'-45'. Which brings me to my question: what's up here?
-Is this just a plain error?
-Is this just the result of two different authors who happened to post different dates?
-Or, is it something more: is Вторая Мированая Война considered to have been the "global" war, including the actions by Germany in Czechslovakia, for example (ie prior to the Russian entry into the war) while Великая Отечественная Война is considered to be really just the Russian involvement in the war (that is, the patriotic defense of the Homeland only)?

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1% ... 0%BD%D0%B0

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0% ... 0%BD%D0%B0

pretty simple explanation when you think about it :)

World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined ;) That was your third option I believe!

BTW: The official date of the start of WWII is the invasion of Poland, that is when France and England declared war.

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

pretty simple explanation when you think about it :)

World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined ;)

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So my last explanation was correct then, eh?

Yes, I just noticed that :D

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Originally Posted by Barmaley

I have always been told/assumed that World War II (Вторая Мировая Война) = Великая Отечественная Война. For whatever reason, I was cruising Wikipedia one day and found that in the Russian versions of these listings (which I will link to below), ВМВ ran from 39'-45', whereas ВОВ (can you say these in Russian btw as abbreviations or do they exist?) ran from 41'-45'.

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ВОВ is quite a common abbreviation.
ВМВ isn't common, but IMO it's perfectly legal.

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

pretty simple explanation when you think about it :)

World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined ;) That was your third option I believe!

BTW: The official date of the start of WWII is the invasion of Poland, that is when France and England declared war.

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What's with the "Fatherland" bit? I thought we cleared this up a couple months ago. Mother Russia etc...
Here is a Motherland statue in Volgograd
http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/A...ges/Rodina.jpg

The monument: An indoor shrine to the fallen topped by one of the largest statues on earth.

Why to go: The Nazis, with their audaciously stupid notions of racial superiority, never understood the Russians. It was a failure that cost them the war. By late 1941, after the Wehrmacht had demolished several Russian armies and had captured 3 million prisoners of war, the Germans were convinced that they were on the verge of victory over the Soviet Union. (cut and pasted quotes)


Happy May Day.

I am still convinced that:
отечество = Fatherland
родина = Motherland (Homeland)

But, it is probably just me being silly again.

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Originally Posted by capecoddah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

pretty simple explanation when you think about it :)

World War II was the WHOLE word war i.e. 1939-1945
The great war of the fatherland was only once the Soviet Union joined the war, i.e. 1941-1945. It wasn't a great war until the Russians joined ;) That was your third option I believe!

BTW: The official date of the start of WWII is the invasion of Poland, that is when France and England declared war.

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What's with the "Fatherland" bit? I thought we cleared this up a couple months ago. Mother Russia etc...
Here is a Motherland statue in Volgograd
http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/A...ges/Rodina.jpg

The monument: An indoor shrine to the fallen topped by one of the largest statues on earth.

Why to go: The Nazis, with their audaciously stupid notions of racial superiority, never understood the Russians. It was a failure that cost them the war. By late 1941, after the Wehrmacht had demolished several Russian armies and had captured 3 million prisoners of war, the Germans were convinced that they were on the verge of victory over the Soviet Union. (cut and pasted quotes)


Happy May Day.

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Because Великая Отечесвенная Война = Great Patriotic War

What's the root of Patriotic in English? What's the root of Paternal?

The Russian word Отечесвенный shares its root with Отец (father).

And we never cleared it up a couple of months ago.

What Western Media called "Defender of the Motherland Day" in Russian is actually defender of the Fatherland day. Отечесво is the word used in this title. Again it comes from the word Отец (Father), and therefore is Fatherland.

Also in the Soviet and Modern Russian anthem, the chorus goes Славься, Отечество наше свободное (Be praised, our free Fatherland).


The Statue you are talking about in Volgograd is called in Russian "Родина-мать зовёт!" Mother Land Сalls! (you can even call it Mother Motherland Calls!).

Родина in itself can be translated as motherland since it is a feminine nouns.

So it's "Defender of the Fatherland Day", and the statue is called Mother Land.

I agree with TATY. And just for the heck of it, I'll share my very slight knowledge of Russian with you all and note that there's also the term материк, which is what those poor souls living out in the middle of Yakutia or in Chukotka or Sakhalin or wherever call the "Russian mainland."

In the West we are always saying "Mother Russia" and stuff.

What is this in Russian, or don't they actually say it.

I can only think of Родина, but that's more "Motherland", since it doens't mention Russia.

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Originally Posted by TATY

In the West we are always saying "Mother Russia" and stuff.

What is this in Russian, or don't they actually say it.

I can only think of Родина, but that's more "Motherland", since it doens't mention Russia.

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Well, there is expression "матушка-Россия".

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TATY

In the West we are always saying "Mother Russia" and stuff.

What is this in Russian, or don't they actually say it.

I can only think of Родина, but that's more "Motherland", since it doens't mention Russia.

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Well, there is expression "матушка-Россия".

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How often is it used?

WOW! What a can of worms I opened up...
From the Russian Embassy:
February 23 Protector of Motherland Day
http://www.russianembassy.org
Embassy of the Russian Federation
Joe Stalin single-handedly won The Great War. Right, OK...
Fun from the movie "PATTON"

Translator: The general would like to know if you will drink a toast with him.
Patton: Thank the general and tell him I have no desire to drink with him or any other Russian son of a bitch.
Translator: [Nervous] I can't tell him that!
Patton: Tell him, every word.
Translator: [In Russian] He says he will not drink with you or any Russian son of a bitch.
Russian general: [In Russian] Tell him he is a son of a bitch, too. Now!
Translator: [Very nervous] He says he thinks you are a son of a bitch, too.
Patton: [Laughing] All right. All right, tell him I'll drink to that; one son of a bitch to another.

I'll drink to you collective sons of a bitches too!
(son of a bitch translation please? суки I know)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by capecoddah

WOW! What a can of worms I opened up...
From the Russian Embassy:
February 23 Protector of Motherland Day
http://www.russianembassy.org
Embassy of the Russian Federation
Joe Stalin single-handedly won The Great War. Right, OK...
Fun from the movie "PATTON"

Translator: The general would like to know if you will drink a toast with him.
Patton: Thank the general and tell him I have no desire to drink with him or any other Russian son of a bitch.
Translator: [Nervous] I can't tell him that!
Patton: Tell him, every word.
Translator: [In Russian] He says he will not drink with you or any Russian son of a bitch.
Russian general: [In Russian] Tell him he is a son of a bitch, too. Now!
Translator: [Very nervous] He says he thinks you are a son of a bitch, too.
Patton: [Laughing] All right. All right, tell him I'll drink to that; one son of a bitch to another.

I'll drink to you collective sons of a bitches too!
(son of a bitch translation please? суки I know)

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I don't care what the Russian embassey calls it.

Let's look at the facts:

1. In Russian the period where Russian was at war with the Nazis (1941-45) is called:

Великая Отечественная Война

Великая - Great
Война - War
Отечественная

Let's look at some dictionaries:
Click here for Lingvo

What does it says? Отечественная война - Patriotic war? Why, yes it does.

Отечественный - patriotic (incase your English is as bad as your Russian, Patr- means to do with the father. E.g. Paternal)
Отец - Father
Отчесвто - Patronymic (as in 'name derived from father's name')

And this day that everyone is calling "Defender of the Motherland" is in Russian:

День защитника Отечества

Clearly the word is derived from Отец - Father.

And finally here are 449 hits for "Defender of the Motherland"
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... d%22&meta=

And

658 hits for "Defender of the Fatherland"
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... d%22&meta=

Also this page from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland
"the Russians, as Otechestvo or Otchizna, although Rodina, that is Motherland, is more common."


Look at Russia on the list? What does it say?
Motherland = Родина.
Fatherland = Отечество

And what is the name of the day called in Russian again?

День защитника Отечества

And let's look at the Soviet National Anthem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ant ... ial_lyrics

"Славься, Отечество наше свободное"

And how is that translated into English?

"Glory to our free Fatherland".


And how did that line go in the English version of the Soviet Anthem, endorsed by the Communist Party for use by English speaking communists?

"Sing to the Fatherland, home of the free,"

I. Rest. My. Case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by capecoddah

WOW! What a can of worms I opened up...
From the Russian Embassy:
February 23 Protector of Motherland Day
http://www.russianembassy.org
Embassy of the Russian Federation
Joe Stalin single-handedly won The Great War. Right, OK...
Fun from the movie "PATTON"

Translator: The general would like to know if you will drink a toast with him.
Patton: Thank the general and tell him I have no desire to drink with him or any other Russian son of a bitch.
Translator: [Nervous] I can't tell him that!
Patton: Tell him, every word.
Translator: [In Russian] He says he will not drink with you or any Russian son of a bitch.
Russian general: [In Russian] Tell him he is a son of a bitch, too. Now!
Translator: [Very nervous] He says he thinks you are a son of a bitch, too.
Patton: [Laughing] All right. All right, tell him I'll drink to that; one son of a bitch to another.

I'll drink to you collective sons of a bitches too!
(son of a bitch translation please? суки I know)

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son of a bitch - сукин сын.

Родина - is from the word род - so it is a place (or a country) where you was born.
Mother Russia - матушка Россия (Россия-матушка)
Fatherland - отечество

Thank you Ramil, I was close. I'll drink with you, ya SOB! 8)

Ай да Пушкин, ай да сукин сын...