Thread: Why is Putin not with all the world leaders at the funeral?

Good Evening,

I can understand why China has not send a representative. But I got shocked when they said on TV that Putin did not go.

What's up with that? Even Iranians and Syrians where there!

Aren't Russians christians?

Is it because the Pope was Polish? Was it because he contributed to the breakdown of the USSR?

Or is it because the (all powerful ?) Orthodox Church told Putin not to go?

Unless proven wrong, the fact he was not there made me feel like Putin has now a problem with the world and feels awkward towards world leaders. Unless it was a political move, but I don't understand it yet.

Politically and diplomatically speaking, Pope's death was quite useful and I loved the picture of all those heads of states... indeed it was a cool moment.

Cheers

Mordan

Maybe Putin simply refuses to become part of the "circus". My estimation of him goes up.

Well, DDT, the whole world is a circus, so don't fall into the trap of thinking a world leader can avoid being a part of it. Like everyone else, he weighed the cost and benefit it would have for his public image. He must have felt it was best to send an image that he did not want to be involved. He is, after all, an Orthodox christian (so he claims), to whom the pope is of no importance. China likely sent someone because they have a large Catholic population (I don't know how it compares to the numer of Catholics in Russia, though).

Originally Posted by DDT

Maybe Putin simply refuses to become part of the "circus". My estimation of him goes up.

The Circus, as you call it, is simply life in our world. That's the way things are.
Now why would 200 world leaders go play in a "circus"?

I find this event quite comical. But still I hold that not being able to play in this circus is a sign of some insecurity.

I mean common, sometimes you got to enjoy yourself and have fun. Who does not like clowns and a good laugh?

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Well, DDT, the whole world is a circus, so don't fall into the trap of thinking a world leader can avoid being a part of it.

I guess we are on the same wavelength on this.

Dudes, it is nothing to do with Putin!

It is all about Aleksy the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Chruch. I read this interesting article on the new york times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/07/in...pagewanted=all

Russia is one of the few countries, where the pope has never been!

niblets from that article:

John Paul's death is, officially, being mourned in Russia as the passing of a man Mr. Putin called "an outstanding public figure whose name signifies the whole era." But beneath the public expressions of condolences runs an undercurrent of animosity and suspicion that divided the leaders of the world's two largest Christian churches: Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox.
...
relations only worsened after the collapse of the Soviet Union. As the Orthodox Church rebuilt its stolen churches and sought to re-establish its spiritual authority, the Vatican and its charismatic leader came to be seen as a threat, one aimed at undermining the Orthodox faith.
...
But in Russia, where the Orthodox Church's political influence has grown significantly, the patriarch's opposition effectively squelched any hope of a visit, despite invitations from the last Soviet leader, Mikhail S. Gorbachev, who met him while still head of the Communist Party in 1990, and from Mr. Putin, who met him twice. Mr. Putin, after his last meeting in the Vatican in 2003, acknowledged that while he wanted to be the host of the first visit to Russia ever by a Roman Catholic pope, he had deferred to the patriarch.
...
The low point in relations came in 2002, when the Vatican elevated the
status of its four apostolic administrative divisions in Russia into traditional dioceses headed by bishops. The Russian government, at the urging of the Orthodox Church, expelled a number of Catholic priests and denied visas to others.
...
The Orthodox Church is sending a delegation to the funeral on Friday, led by Metropolitan Kirill, the head of external relations, but Aleksy declined to attend. Father Vsevold said it was not normal practice for the patriarch to attend funerals of religious or political leaders abroad.

Mr. Putin also opted not to attend. Russia will be represented by his prime minister, Mikhail Y. Fradkov.

Originally Posted by Mordan

I mean common, sometimes you got to enjoy yourself and have fun. Who does not like clowns and a good laugh?

I have Coulrophobia. I do not like clowns.

I think that Putin wants to show him difference from all the world, i mean he wants to say - "Russia is a great and a big country , and Russia is the greates country" , so he wants to show that he has the OTHER politics. IMHO

Putin needs to keep a good relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church more than he needs the 2 second photo op of him standing at the funeral.
The Russian Orthodox Church is waging a battle against all foreign and non-Orthodox religions that have come to "save" the post soviet Russians, the majority which consider themselves Russian Orthodox. Putin has declared himself a true believer (an interesting switch from his KGB days) and shows up weekly at all sorts of Orthodox occassions and ceremonies. An appearance at a Roman Catholic event would be a slap in the face to the Russian Church and cause Putin all sorts of political havoc back home.

The irony is that Russian Orthodoxy and Catholicism are virtualy one and the same. There was some doctrine dispute but the split between the two churches was more of a power struggle that continues to this day. If I had to choose between the two I would choose Orthodoxy simply to prevent Rome from controlling Russian politics.

Eastern Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholics are NOT the same. Although they have many of the same saints from preschism times, and a few of the same prayers, the Roman church has moved far away from the teaching and beliefs of the Orthodox. Even John Paul didn't seem to fathom the depth of the canyon between the 2 faiths, which is why both the Greek Orthodox bishop of Jerusalem and the Russian Orthodox bishop of Moscow were so cold to JP2.

Originally Posted by JB

Eastern Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholics are NOT the same.

I said VIRTUALY one and the same. This is especially obvious when Orthodoxy and Catholosism are compared to the many protestant churches.

The Queen didn't go because she is head of the Church of England, and they have a bad history with the catholics.

Originally Posted by TATY

The Queen didn't go

Thay's my girl!

This funeral is the biggest pope funeral ever. If you ask me the whole thing is scary. The last funeral for a pope, in the late 1970's, only attracted ONE world leader. The president of a small African nation.

Originally Posted by DDT

The irony is that Russian Orthodoxy and Catholicism are virtualy one and the same. There was some doctrine dispute but the split between the two churches was more of a power struggle that continues to this day. If I had to choose between the two I would choose Orthodoxy simply to prevent Rome from controlling Russian politics.

That's why, as I've already said, the Pope (being only an archbishop of Rome) cannot visit another archbishopric district without permit of the head of this district, or, at least, without formal request. JPII didn't trouble himself to issue such a request. Futhermore, how Catholic church can establish dioceses when there are dioceses already in Russia.
If it does, then Catholic administration must officially proclaim either
1) it is not a true Christian church, but a heretic or self-proclaimed organisation like most Protestant churches are
OR
2) Orthodox church is not a true Christian church, but a heretic or self-proclaimed organisation like most Protestant churches are.

As far as I know, there's still some kind of formal agreement between these 2 churches. So what Catholics do, goes against this agreement.

P.S. I personally don't care. Just a friend of mine said this. I dunno if it is true or not.

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have not been one church since the schism in 1058. So how are they be "virtually the same" now? The Roman Catholic dogmas and practices have evolved it into a seperate and alien entity from the Orthodox.

Originally Posted by JB

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have not been one church since the schism in 1058. So how are they be "virtually the same" now?

Because compared to the rest of christianity's beliefs they are together at one end of the spectrum. Don't you realise how many churches don't even think that Catholisism falls under the umbrella of christianity?

They are sadly mistaken.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Good Evening,

I can understand why China has not send a representative. But I got shocked when they said on TV that Putin did not go.

First of all, Putin *did* sent his representative (Fradkov).
(I'm not sure he's right, however -- it could be wiser just to ignore this event, as China did.)

What's up with that? Even Iranians and Syrians where there!

"Even?" Why are you think about Iranians and Syrians so bad?

Aren't Russians christians?

No. Mostly atheists.
And the remaining ones are *orthodoxal*, not catholic christains.
So, for them, the death of Pope means just the same, as, for example,
death of Moscow Patriarch for Italians.

Is it because the Pope was Polish? Was it because he contributed to the breakdown of the USSR?

As for me, it's just another two reason for not liking him much...

Unless proven wrong, the fact he was not there made me feel like Putin has now a problem with the world and feels awkward towards world leaders. Unless it was a political move, but I don't understand it yet.

It was a political move (and a wise political move, IMHO).

Politically and diplomatically speaking, Pope's death was quite useful

You meant "cynically speaking"?

As for me, it's just another two reason for not liking him much...

And what exactly is so wrong about being polish? jw.