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Russians and English?
1) Is English as hard to learn for Russians as Russian is for speakers of English and other West European languages?
2) Is it necessary now to speak good English in order to have a successful professional career in Russia?
(If so, the achievements of those who are fluent are truly outstanding!)
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Re: Russians and English?
It is difficult to speculate on this because one hardly can compare. But here is what I feel like:
There is a formula for English "easy to learn but hard to master". This implies different levels of the language. There is a kind of international basic English which is used by the international society as well as English for native speakers. I did read much special literature in English and found that (naturally) texts written by non-native speakers of English is much more easy to understand. Their English is less rich but in some sense more exact than native English. Next step: I found that writting in English complicated special texts for me often easier then in Russian. :) In Russian usually I am lost in long sentences and stylistic complications. English is easier. :D
So I feel like in contemporary Russian there is (almost) no that basic level "easy to learn". With a very simplified Russian you would hardly be understood by the native speakers.
Maybe I am wrong.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
1) Is English as hard to learn for Russians as Russian is for speakers of English and other West European languages?
2) Is it necessary now to speak good English in order to have a successful professional career in Russia?
(If so, the achievements of those who are fluent are truly outstanding!)
1) I think that English is easier for the Russians than vice versa.
2) No, from the point I'm standing in, knowing a foreign language is a preferrable but not mandatory condition for a successful career. Still it depends on your trade. Some professions require it, some not. My present work for example (finance and accounting) doesn't require it at all. I could do well without any foreign language at all. My moontime job as a translator definetely requires at least some knowledge of a foreign language ))).
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
My [s:2a4r4kvw]moontime[/s:2a4r4kvw] moonlighting job as a translator [s:2a4r4kvw]definetely[/s:2a4r4kvw] definitely requires at least some knowledge of a foreign language ))).
Sheepishly corrected by the only person on this forum who does not know more than one language. :oops:
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Re: Russians and English?
:lol: Thanks, rockzmom.
'definitely' is a stubborn word for me for some reason. Everytime I type it that 'e' issue pops up.
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Re: Russians and English?
I judge by how many Russians post in English: a lot
how many non-Russians post in Russian: hardly any
I think that settles the issue. *)
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
So I feel like in contemporary Russian there is (almost) no that basic level "easy to learn". With a very simplified Russian you would hardly be understood by the native speakers.
Maybe I am wrong.
I think that's a very good point. It would be hard for a Russian to understand how frustrating it is to construct even the simplest of sentences, as there seem to be a myriad of possible mistakes.
For example, take the sentence "I'm going to the store." Even in a rudimentary form like "I go store" you're going to be understood in English. But in Russian you have to deal with which verb (ехать или идтй) then you have to decide whether you want the imperfect or perfect form, then you have to conjugate it (which is difficult since both are irregular). That doesn't even mention where the stress would be. Then you have to say "to the store" and decide which preposition and the proper declension, if any. BTW, I'm going to say it like this "Я поеду в магазин," which, sadly to say, after 4 yrs of study, I'm not sure is right. :dunno: You can't say something like Я идтй магазин, because no one's going to understand what you're saying.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
So I feel like in contemporary Russian there is (almost) no that basic level "easy to learn". With a very simplified Russian you would hardly be understood by the native speakers.
Maybe I am wrong.
I think that's a very good point. It would be hard for a Russian to understand how frustrating it is to construct even the simplest of sentences, as there seem to be a myriad of possible mistakes.
For example, take the sentence "I'm going to the store." Even in a rudimentary form like "I go store" you're going to be understood in English. But in Russian you have to deal with which verb (ехать или идтй) then you have to decide whether you want the imperfect or perfect form, then you have to conjugate it (which is difficult since both are irregular). That doesn't even mention where the stress would be. Then you have to say "to the store" and decide which preposition and the proper declension, if any. BTW, I'm going to say it like this "Я поеду в магазин," which, sadly to say, after 4 yrs of study, I'm not sure is right. :dunno: You can't say something like Я идтй магазин, because no one's going to understand what you're saying.
Я поеду в магазин is correct (if you're going by car or by other transportation means). If you walk (an if you mean generally going) you can say Я пойду (or Я пошел - use perfect to stress on the finality of your decision to go). All of these variants will be correct.
And if you simply say Ya idteeh mahgahzeen you will be understood. Just make sure you say mahgahzeen and not magazine. )))
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
I think that's a very good point. It would be hard for a Russian to understand how frustrating it is to construct even the simplest of sentences, as there seem to be a myriad of possible mistakes.
For example, take the sentence "I'm going to the store." Even in a rudimentary form like "I go store" you're going to be understood in English. But in Russian you have to deal with which verb (ехать или идти) then you have to decide whether you want the imperfect or perfect form, then you have to conjugate it (which is difficult since both are irregular). That doesn't even mention where the stress would be. Then you have to say "to the store" and decide which preposition and the proper declension, if any. BTW, I'm going to say it like this "Я поеду в магазин," which, sadly to say, after 4 yrs of study, I'm not sure is right. :dunno: You can't say something like Я идти магазин, because no one's going to understand what you're saying.
Well, if you say "я идти магазин", you could be understood. :)
I actually disagree with Ramil. No, "я поеду в магазин" is not correct if you are trying to say "I'm going to the store". It should be "я иду (or еду) в магазин". Иду and еду are the present tense, but поеду is future.
Also note the spelling of the verb идти.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
I think that's a very good point. It would be hard for a Russian to understand how frustrating it is to construct even the simplest of sentences, as there seem to be a myriad of possible mistakes.
For example, take the sentence "I'm going to the store." Even in a rudimentary form like "I go store" you're going to be understood in English. But in Russian you have to deal with which verb (ехать или идти) then you have to decide whether you want the imperfect or perfect form, then you have to conjugate it (which is difficult since both are irregular). That doesn't even mention where the stress would be. Then you have to say "to the store" and decide which preposition and the proper declension, if any. BTW, I'm going to say it like this "Я поеду в магазин," which, sadly to say, after 4 yrs of study, I'm not sure is right. :dunno: You can't say something like Я идти магазин, because no one's going to understand what you're saying.
Well, if you say "я идти магазин", you could be understood. :)
I actually disagree with Ramil. No, "я поеду в магазин" is not correct if you are trying to say "I'm going to the store". It should be "я
иду (or
еду) в магазин". Иду and еду are the present tense, but поеду is future.
Also note the spelling of the verb идт
и.
Оля, I'm going to the store кроме выражения текущего и непосредственного движения по направлению к магазину также может указывать на намерение совершить это действие. В этих случаях I'm going to do smth означает "я собираюсь сделать что-либо" или "я сделаю что-либо в ближайшее время"
Если магазин далеко, и чтобы туда добраться надо ехать на чём-либо, то фраза "я поеду в магазин" вполне соответствует английскому "I'm going to the store".
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Re: Russians and English?
I feel like such a diva now because I've only been studying for a couple of months and I knew about the different forms of "go" and how to say the sentence about going to the store.
:yahoo:
And I am quite rubbish with languages really, a slow learner!
The reason I know it is because it is explained in a course that I've been listening to on my iPod called "Michel Thomas' Advanced Russian' (Recommended!)
The "teacher" in the course is VERY good and I am beginning to realise that her course pinpointed many of the points that can be tricky.
ANYWAY ----- Interesting to hear about the situation with English in Russia, thanks for the insight!
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Оля, I'm going to the store кроме выражения текущего и непосредственного движения по направлению к магазину также может указывать на намерение совершить это действие.
Это я знаю. Но мне кажется, это не тот случай.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
В этих случаях I'm going to do smth означает "я собираюсь сделать что-либо" или "я сделаю что-либо в ближайшее время"
По-моему, это не к делу, потому что sperk сказал "I'm going to the store" а не "I'm going to go shopping". В том-то и дело, что в английском языке, как и в русском, глагол в настоящем времени может означать действие, которое произойдёт в будущем времени. Например: Что ты делаешь сегодня вечером? What are you doing tonight?
I'm going to the store doesn't mean I'm on my way towards the store, but rather Now I'm going to go to the store.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
I'm going to the store doesn't mean I'm on my way towards the store, but rather Now I'm going to go to the store.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say to Olya. She wrote:
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Originally Posted by Оля
Это я знаю. Но мне кажется, это не тот случай.
Мне кажется случай именно тот. Эту фразу можно перевести: "Я собираюсь в магазин", "Я иду (еду) в магазин".
По-русски я могу сказать: "Я иду в магазин" (имея ввиду конкретный магазин за углом), обозначая намерение пойти в этот магазин (всё ещё находясь дома)
'I'm going to the store' could also indicate the intention to go to the store.
Here, for example:
Stay and starve if you want, but I'm going to the store to get some food.
Оставайся голодным, если хочешь, а я иду в магазин за продуктами. (иду и пойду здесь взаимозаменяемы).
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Re: Russians and English?
I used to think that the most difficult aspect of Russian is system of cases, espesially in combination with system of genders. After reading this forum for quite a while now, I don't think that anymore. Now I think it's the aspect of verbs.
What do native speakers of English think about English in that respect? What did you think about difficulties of English before and after being exposed to English writing of Russians?
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Re: Russians and English?
The concept of articles was pure hell for me. I'm not even sure that I've grasped it fully even now, after so many years of studying.
The rest was relatively easy.
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Re: Russians and English?
Ну хорошо. Пусть даже это "тот случай". Но всё равно "я иду/собираюсь в магазин" это не совсем то же, что и "я поеду в магазин". "Я поеду в магазин" я бы перевела именно как "I will go to the store".
I find the concept of articles quite easy :P
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Ну хорошо. Пусть даже это "тот случай". Но всё равно "я иду/собираюсь в магазин" это не совсем то же, что и "я поеду в магазин". "Я поеду в магазин" я бы перевела именно как "I will go to the store".
I find the concept of articles quite easy :P
Уже поздно, я еду домой. (поеду домой)
It's late already, I'm going home.
В доме нет еды - я еду в магазин! (поеду в магазин)
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-learner
I used to think that the most difficult aspect of Russian is system of cases, espesially in combination with system of genders. After reading this forum for quite a while now, I don't think that anymore. Now I think it's the aspect of verbs.
What do native speakers of English think about English in that respect? What did you think about difficulties of English before and after being exposed to English writing of Russians?
to me the most difficult thing about English is spelling, mainly because the way a word sounds and the way it is spelled vary widely.
PS: I agree with you about the aspect of verbs being the most difficult thing about Russian; not so much the usage but the instantaneous identification of whether something is imp or perf and also the conjugations.
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Re: Russians and English?
Well I learnt English as a foreign language and it sure wasn't easy for me. :wall:
However at least my language is more similar to English than Russian...
Plus I had the "advantage" of exposure to un-dubbed TV while growing up. So I really admire those Russians who speak good English - it's must have been even harder for you guys than it was for me.
IMHO the European Union ought to drop English as the common language and use Esperanto instead. :yahoo: I don't know it, but apparently it can be learnt to a high standard in under 1/4 of the time that it takes to learn good English. Plus it's fairer to everyone instead of constantly putting English speakers at an advantage.
Regular Europeans would then have more time available to focus on other languages, like Russian, English (if they really want it... !) Chinese or anything else they fancy.
As it is, people get so sick :bad: of the pressure to learn English that they are put off language learning (of any language) for a long time... I've only just recovered from this condition myself.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
IMHO the European Union ought to drop English as the common language and use Esperanto instead. :yahoo: I don't know it, but apparently it can be learnt to a high standard in under 1/4 of the time that it takes to learn good English.
Well English comes along with all its literature, whereas Esperanto as a language is pretty much naked, so I'd still learn English, although I am not very fond of linguistic imperialism. Also I've never felt any pressure to learn English, so I guess it depends on where you live. Down here in France, nobody speaks English, and we just don't care. :pardon:
I wish Russian replaced English as the international language, but this is rather unlikely.
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Re: Russians and English?
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Originally Posted by Zubr
Down here in France, nobody speaks English, and we just don't care. :pardon:
YES and NO, Zubr!
I know all too well first hand that "YOU" French don't care about us poor English speaking tourists. We can miss our trains, get lost, not eat for days... unless... unless... we try to speak at least ONE little word of French albeit poorly pronounced and hacked to death with a horrible accent. THEN and ONLY THEN will you lend us a hand. All the while, you secretly have understood us the entire time and are laughing at us behind our backs. I am certain you have a competition each year as to who made the American tourist suffer the most. I believe one year it was the person who tormented my mother! :cry:
And still, we come back for more. Why?
Because it is just like being in New York! All the attitude and without having to learn Freach or the French accent! That AND there is NOWHERE else to get a decent croissant!!!! :yahoo:
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Down here in France, nobody speaks English, and we just don't care. :pardon:
YES and NO, Zubr!
I know all too well first hand that "YOU" French don't care about us poor English speaking tourists. We can miss our trains, get lost, not eat for days...
Deleted. L.
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Re: Russians and English?
Лампада, это уже даже не смешно. У Зубра может сложиться впечатление, что за ним по пятам с этой ссылкой ходят. :D
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Лампада, это уже даже не смешно. У Зубра может сложиться впечатление, что за ним по пятам с этой ссылкой ходят. :D
Sorry!
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
IMHO the European Union ought to drop English as the common language and use Esperanto instead. :yahoo:
Well English comes along with all its literature, whereas Esperanto as a language is pretty much naked, so I'd still learn English, although I am not very fond of linguistic imperialism. Also I've never felt any pressure to learn English, so I guess it depends on where you live. Down here in France, nobody speaks English, and we just don't care. :pardon:
I wish Russian replaced English as the international language, but this is rather unlikely.
Well that's a good point, but actually, if Esperanto was used as a language for communication, it wouldn't matter that it has no litterature becuase people could read novels etc in their native languages, or in whatever other normal langauges they spoke.. Esperanto could be used just to speak with other Europeans and perhaps for non-fiction.
As for Russian as a language in Europe... I guess speakers of Slavic languages wouldn't mind it so much, but it would be a nightmare for everyone else! As for whether it was going to happen... well with the USSR gone and and more and more Nato bases being established, I guess not... hehe! But seriously, I hope for better relations between EU and Russia. Russia is a more decent country than the US, I think, yet I'll be damned if I can find a single nice thing written about Russia in a British paper.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
As for Russian as a language in Europe... it would be a nightmare for everyone else!
Хм... It’s interesting. Why? Because of Russian is more difficult to learn, or maybe the reason shelters in something else?
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Re: Russians and English?
Artificial languages are good only for computers IMHO. Nobody really knows what makes language good for living people. It's a MIstery of Creation&Evolution Inc. :)
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Звездочёт
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
As for Russian as a language in Europe... it would be a nightmare for everyone else!
Хм... It’s interesting. Why? Because of Russian is more difficult to learn, or maybe the reason shelters in something else?
Because of the Cyrillic alphabet.
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Re: Russians and English?
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Originally Posted by Zaya
Лампада, это уже даже не смешно. У Зубра может сложиться впечатление, что за ним по пятам с этой ссылкой ходят. :D
Ничего, Зая. И я об этом фильме сразу подумал. :wink:
Rockzmom, I see you know our little sesame! I'll have to tell my fellow compatriots that you Americans won't be tricked by us anymore, and we have to find another way to bully you. Or can you keep the secret...? :rose:
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Лампада, это уже даже не смешно. У Зубра может сложиться впечатление, что за ним по пятам с этой ссылкой ходят. :D
Ничего, Зая. И я об этом фильме сразу подумал. :wink: ...
Между прочим, почему такое серьёзное отношение к этому видео? Разве это не инсценированная хохма?
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Re: Russians and English?
Было бы серьезное — не было бы смайла в конце. «Даже», пожалуй, было лишним. Извини. Если хочешь восстановить ссылку — восстанавливай, дело твое, я не то чтобы сильно против (может, кто-то теперь гадает, что там было))). В любом случае, этот вариант меня устроит больше, чем долгие расспросы в духе «почему такое серьезное отношение».
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-learner
I used to think that the most difficult aspect of Russian is system of cases, espesially in combination with system of genders. After reading this forum for quite a while now, I don't think that anymore. Now I think it's the aspect of verbs.
What do native speakers of English think about English in that respect? What did you think about difficulties of English before and after being exposed to English writing of Russians?
My own thesis is that each language has things which make it harder (to learn) and things which make it easier. I remember when I was first starting Russian having difficulty with the LACK of articles, but soon realized that no articles made things a bit easier. This was offset, of course, by having to learn case endings.
As for difficulties in learning English, I think this forum, just by being a written forum, hides some of the big difficulties in learning pronunciation. I haven't yet met a Russian speaker who can pronounce my name accurately. Intonation and stress patterns are quite important in spoken English for conveying subtle meanings and they are quite different than they are in Russian.
I've got a book here in front of me called Learner English (ed Michael Swan and Bernard Smith) which covers some of the chief difficulties in learning English for speakers of a number of other languages. The article on Russian goes over a number of specific issues: use of commas, formation of questions, use of auxiliary verbs, past progressive tense, passive voice, conditionals, word order, comparative adjectives, etc.
Each of those things simply represents something which is DIFFERENT about Russian and English, which means that each of those items is likely to cause corresponding difficulties for English speakers learning Russian.
I suppose one global issue is that English gets quite a bit of exposure in Russian speaking countries whereas the reverse is certainly not the case. So people growing up in Russia (Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, etc) should have a head start.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb
I haven't yet met a Russian speaker who can pronounce my name accurately.
Do you mean the name Paul? If not, tell me your name please and let me try. :-)
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb
I haven't yet met a Russian speaker who can pronounce my name accurately.
Do you mean the name Paul? If not, tell me your name please and let me try. :-)
Yes. My full name is Paul Baxter. The final r in my last name usually causes trouble, but the vowel in my first name much more so.
Just as a random aside, I was amused recently to learn that there is a Russian word вахтёр. I saw it in a story I was reading and I thought it was about me for a second :wink:
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb
I suppose one global issue is that English gets quite a bit of exposure in Russian speaking countries whereas the reverse is certainly not the case. So people growing up in Russia (Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, etc) should have a head start.
Paul ---I think the headstart is minimal. I was using Livemocha.com for a while and helped out lots of people from Russia and Ukraine with English grammar and pronounciation. The Russian speaking English learners at LiveMocha were at an age that, if they had studied English in school, they ought to have been a LOT better than they actually were... I know this because I studied English as a foreign language (ESL) in school. They must have been complete beginners. They were struggling tremendously with basic pronounciation and grammar.
I don't know what the policies are on studying English at school in the CIS countries. But either it's not mandatory, or it was only recently made mandatory..
Of course, I am speaking as somebody who had to drop out of Russian in school because it was too hard for me! I had to choose Spanish instead for my third foreign language. So this is no criticism against people from these countries.
Whether it's right, fair or sensible to expect everybody to learn English is a completely different story.... But that's the way the world is today, unfortunately... Of course, things were different for Russians etc in the USSR times, but a lot of time has passed since then...
Most of the people on Livemocha were between 20 and 30. Within the borders of the European Union, I don't think you could find a 20-year-old who could not at least speak rudimentary English.
Then on the other hand, the Russian speaking world is so enormously big, and quite well integrated... There must surely be at least 250mil speakers of Russian... Perhaps English simply isn't needed and this is the reason for the lack of English skills. It's hard to understand what the exact situation is. :dunno:
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
I don't know what the policies are on studying English at school in the CIS countries. But either it's not mandatory, or it was only recently made mandatory..
It depends on a particular school. During my shool time after five years of English lessons in ordinary shool (2x45min lessons a week) I was able to say only three phrases: "My name is Yuriy.","This is a table." and "Who is on duty today?" :lol:
Quote:
Within the borders of the European Union, I don't think you could find a 20-year-old who could not at least speak rudimentary English.
Maybe, but there are plenty of 45+ years-old who don't speak English almost at all (At least I met some of such kind).
Quote:
Then on the other hand, the Russian speaking world is so enormously big, and quite well integrated... There must surely be at least 250mil speakers of Russian... Perhaps English simply isn't needed and this is the reason for the lack of English skills. It's hard to understand what the exact situation is. :dunno:
For example my wife (she is 29) doesn't speak a word in English. It isn't more understandable for her than Chinese. (That's one of the reasons I post here in English, I hate when she stands behind and reads what I'm typing :lol: ). Her native language is Ukrainian, she speaks Russian without any Ukrainian accent and feels perfectly sufficient with these two.
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
It depends on a particular school. During my shool time after five years of English lessons in ordinary shool (2x45min lessons a week) I was able to say only three phrases: "My name is Yuriy.","This is a table." and "Who is on duty today?" :lol:
What about "I live in ..." and "I go to school"? ))
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Re: Russians and English?
But you both speak good English!
Did you achieve it by studying on your own?
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Re: Russians and English?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
But you both speak good English!
Did you achieve it by studying on your own?
He he, how could you know how they speak English? :wink:
As for me, I even don't know how I speak English because I never tried!!! :D