Thread: Religion and Christmas in Russia and elsewhere....

Well I am definitely not one of those Christians who think that everybody must be the same brand of Christianity as me..

Orthodox religion (Russian and Greek) are supposed to be the closest to the Original Chrisitianity from the first century. That makes it pretty interesting! Plus the churches of the orthodox religion are very impressive. (Compare with a Lutheran church, just a plain stone building with white walls inside -- not saints, icons or illustrations on the wall, usually.)

In Sweden the Church is run by the state, and all the bishops are appointed by the state. The state has been social democratic for almost 100 years, so the same is true for the Church. The result of this is that the sermons are ALWAYS about things like solidarity and justice, instead of biblical messages. Plus, it is always prioritising "politically correct" values over biblical values.. I.e. homosexuals can have their "union" blessed in church and plenty more very unbiblical practices. In my opinion they are seriously undermining their own credibility. How can anybody take them seriously when they always change their dogma and do things which are contradictory to the bible? I go to the Swedish church in London sometimes, but only for social reasons, not for religious reasons -- it's like a community meeting place more than a church.

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Oh he is soooooo cute!
He looks like he loves being baptised!

I can't see what the date on the pic says - does it say '03 or '08?
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Does the Orthodoxy have confirmations when the kid is older, like Catholicism and Lutheranism have?

I had mine when I was 13, like most kids in Sweden. You go to a camp for five weeks and come back and have the ceremony in church.

Typical confirmation. Looks a lot "holier" than it is!

Originally Posted by Johanna

Oh he is soooooo cute!
He looks like he loves being baptised!

He is crying actually. Just imagine - some unknown bearded guy with a smell of olibanum is putting him (he was only one y.o., it was his first birthday) into the barrel of water.

I can't see what the date on the pic says - does it say '03 or '08?

It's '03.

Does the Orthodoxy have confirmations when the kid is older, like Catholicism and Lutheranism have?

The Orthodox confirmations is taking place immediately after baptism.

If that was '03 what does he look like now?

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Very handsome young man!
Nice photo also.. autum colours etc

Originally Posted by Johanna

Very handsome young man!
Nice photo also.. autum colours etc

Thanks!

A few odd notes.

About Christ Cathedral, I'm surprised you didn't mention the neon signs inside! The place was nearly like Disneyland when I was there in '03.

The communists destroyed thousands of churches.

Not only Christians but Jews too had to worship in secret.

When I was in Saint Petersburg in 1986 a guy took me to a church that had been turned into a skating rink. The inside walls still had the original frescos (icons were gone though), but the floor was ice, and people were skating. I wonder if anyone here knows about this church. It would be interesting to know what has happened to it since then.

Neon signs in a church sounds like a bad idea.... Not good for creating the right athmosphere. Anyone has pictures of that?

On the other hand, in Britain there are barbed wires on the windows of old churches, and in some old churches there is wall to wall carpeting (1970s style) Looks dreadful.

The problem across Europe and probably in Russia too is that there are a lot more old churches than there are worshippers... Someone needs to pay for maintenance of the churches and it is hard to justify the expenses when the churches aren't used very much.

In Sweden it's paid for through taxes, becuase the Church is part of the state. But a lot of people are starting to question why they should be paying taxes to the Lutheran state Church - particularly people who say they are atheists, or who belong to a different religion (i.e. immigrants from Moslem or Catholic countries).

In England it's even more complicated and some churches are in very poor repair - they simply can't pay for the maintenance and the buildings are very old.

What is the status of the Orthodox church in Russia now?
Is it the official state religion (part of the state) or is it free-standing?
How is church maintenance and church activities for kids and old people paid for?

What is the status of the Orthodox church in Russia now?
Is it the official state religion (part of the state) or is it free-standing?

Officially, there're no state religions. The Moscow Patriarchate, though, receives a certain amount of material help. The state provides bodyguarding for the Patriarch. Authorities of different levels time time materially help as well as theyt often decide in favour of the Moscow Patriarchate. The top state officials visit major sermons (like the Christmass liturgy in the Moscow's Christ the Saviour's cathedral). Top province/city, etc. officials often do the same in other churches.

How is church maintenance and church activities for kids and old people paid for?

1. There are many wealthy Orthodox sponsors, both individuals and companies.
2. Local authorities and enterprises often provide different kinds of material help.
3. Sale of icons, crosses, spiritual literature.
4. There are fixed donations for sermons, unless parish's senior priest allows otherwise.
5. Small-scale private donations and fundrising.
6. Private volunteering. This is mainly building work.

Thanks Ленивец, very clear answers -- that's really interesting to know.

Someone mentioned unusual sects. Russia has certainly had its fair share of these. For example, the Skoptsy/Скопцы who believed in salvation through castration. The creed was founded in the 18th century but, apparently, there are still some adherents in the Ukraine. Some members of this sect, clearly not believing in half measures, remove(d) everything that normally indicates manhood.

In the 19th century some of them became quite rich since they lived frugally and did not chase after women. Maybe there's a lesson there...

Read more in Russian:http://religion.babr.ru/chr/east/srs/skop.htm

or in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

Today is the day of the Scandinavian midwinter pre-Christmas festival of light, called "St Lucia" (it's an old pagan / Christian holiday. The celebration involves lots of singing and drinking Nordic glühwein (glögg).)

Johanna, aren't those some really nice pictures!
The children look like little Hyperboreans to me. Long time ago our languages and nations were not yet divided (I'm talking about the ancient European people) and the traditions related to winter solstice were the same for all. Something really makes me believe there were such times.

Originally Posted by Капитан

Today is the day of the Scandinavian midwinter pre-Christmas festival of light, called "St Lucia" (it's an old pagan / Christian holiday. The celebration involves lots of singing and drinking Nordic glühwein (glögg).)

Johanna, aren't those some really nice pictures!
The children look like little Hyperboreans to me. Long time ago our languages and nations were not yet divided (I'm talking about the ancient European people) and the traditions related to winter solstice were the same for all. Something really makes me believe there were such times.

Капитан----
Yes I agree with you -- it's interesting to think about pre-Christian times and what people believed in back then...

Here in England, it's INCREDIBLY interesting and cool to visit the old stone circle areas, which probably had some religious meaning, although nobody quite knows what.

In Sweden we had the Viking religion for about 500 years before Christianity arrived, 1100 a.d. -- but before that.. who knows? Before the Viking era, some Scandinavians built mazes (labyrinths) from stones, on the ground. Some are still maintained. People have looked after them for over 1000s of years, without even knowing what the purpose of them were!

I think you in Ukraine have some traditions in common with Scandinavia, for example Midsummer (Ivan Kupola?) We have some great traditions in connection with that. I think I have heard that Ukraine celebrates it too?

I think (???) that your area of North East Europe was among the last part of Europe to become Christian?

Or is the "Ivan Kupola" tradition from the Baltic states maybe? Anyway I remember singing a couple of songs about that when I was in a choir as a child. The name stuck on my mind because it was also the name of an old ferry/cruise-ship that cruised the port cities of the Baltic Sea. It docked near my house.

Originally Posted by Johanna

I think you in Ukraine have some traditions in common with Scandinavia, for example Midsummer (Ivan Kupola?)

Ivan Kupala is a pagan Slavic holiday, and it's still celebrated to some extent in many Slavic countries (not only Ukraine).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kupala_Day

Check beautiful folk songs by the Russian band of the same name:
Their first hit "Кострома" (recommended!) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_0j_38Tda0
"Виноград" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuoIYBQF94
"Молодость" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnqWC9T-T1c
"Воротечки" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKF9090e1wU


Soviet stamp "Ivan Kupala in Belarussia" (Folk traditions series):

Johanna, I was born in Ukraine, but my parents are from Russia. Actually my grand parents are from many parts of Russia, including Urals, Baikal, etc. I know for sure that my grand mother celebrated all those holidays as a kid, but the Soviet Era has wiped out a lot of tradition and replaced it with communist ideology. The situation has changed now, but it is not so easy to return to traditions for those whose parents did not follow them. Somehow I view myself as an Indo-European, not just Russian. And I feel connected to all the proto-European culture, it is layered deep inside my genetic memory which I am still not able to read clearly. BTW the stone labyrinths you mentioned are also found in Northern Russia. Moreover, the people of ancient Crete produced coins with the picture of a similar labyrinth:

Compare it to the Trojaborg labyrinth in Sweden.
This may mean that the inhabitants of Crete were somehow related to the above mentioned culture. Maybe the culture expanded as people migrated to warmer regions because of climatic changes. Of course, the current distribution of cultures and ethnicities differs from what it was like back then.

Originally Posted by Johanna

I think (???) that your area of North East Europe was among the last part of Europe to become Christian?

Christianity became official religion in Kievan Rus' (predecessor of modern Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine) in 988:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...ievan_Rus'

Map of Kievan Rus' at that times:



The Primary Chronicle reports that in the year 987, as the result of a consultation with his boyars, Vladimir sent envoys to study the religions of the various neighboring nations whose representatives had been urging him to embrace their respective faiths. The result is amusingly described in the following apocryphal anecdote. Of the Muslim Bulgarians of the Volga the envoys reported there is no gladness among them; only sorrow and a great stench. They also said that their religion was undesirable due to its taboo against alcoholic beverages and pork; supposedly, Vladimir said on that occasion: "Drinking is the joy of the Rus'." ("Веселие на Руси питие есть")
Russian sources also describe Vladimir consulting with Jewish envoys (who may or may not have been Khazars), and questioning them about their religion but ultimately rejecting it, saying that their loss of Jerusalem was evidence of their having been abandoned by God.
Ultimately Vladimir settled on Christianity. In the gloomy churches of the Germans his emissaries saw no beauty; but at Hagia Sophia, where the full festival ritual of the Byzantine Church was set in motion to impress them, they found their ideal: "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth," they reported, "nor such beauty, and we know not how to tell of it." If Vladimir was impressed by this account of his envoys, he was yet more so by political gains of the Byzantine alliance.

In comparison Scandinavia for example became christian a bit later:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...of_Scandinavia

BTW, there is an animation movie about Vladimir made recently that I liked a lot:

http://www.knyazvladimir.ru/

trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFU4C28w98

Originally Posted by Капитан

but the Soviet Era has wiped out a lot of tradition and replaced it with communist ideology.

Ага, особенно Масленицу гнобили Вообще, к этим языческим традициям претензии были у церкви.

Kiev русь nearly has not accepted an islam.(Киевская Русь чуть не приняла Ислам.)
А вообще от "языческих" традиций осталоcь очень много: по дереву постучать, в зеркало посмотреть, не есть с ножа и др.