Dear All!
Lampada is here.
I want to try to split the huge movie topic in two. So, please, bear with me.
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Dear All!
Lampada is here.
I want to try to split the huge movie topic in two. So, please, bear with me.
http://subs.com.ru/page.php?id=4701 Subtitles for this movieQuote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
I've seen the original and I remember wondering at the end if that boy was actually a murderer or not, though as far as I understand it wasn't the point at all, it was all about how to deal with people, so I see how it could be relevant to management.
E-Learner...So, you saw the original 12 Angry Men... did you by any chance see the Russian remake that Lt. Columbo and Olya are speaking about?
If so, what did you think about it?
How did you think it compared to the original?
If not, would you be willing to watch it and then post a review???
Also, anyone one else who might have seen the American and Russian versions? I am interested in learning your thoughts on these two films as I don’t know how many films are out there that fit this category (American and Russian versions of same film).
Does anyone know of other films like this one??? :unknown:
Lt. Columbo, what about you… did you see the American version??? If not... go watch it (with your girlfriend of course)... and then post your thoughts... please :rose:
I know Lt. Columbo already had a thread about this film; however, most of it was in Russian and I simply could not understand it. Please accept my apologizes if you are repeating your comments in English now.
I have seen the American original version and for me it's better than Russian one. I can't write a review since I don't remember it well, I just remember it was more or less a good movie and it was MUCH better than Mikhalkov's "12".
Мне и самому из современных русских фильмов нравятся только 2-3, но ставить весь современный русский кинематограф в один ряд с Голливудом я бы не стал. Бюджет их фильмов средней паршивости минимум пятьдесят миллионов, а русских - максимум в десять раз меньше.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Так и я вроде не ставила их в один ряд. Я написала, что современное российское кино - это жалкие потуги на Голливуд.Quote:
Originally Posted by delog
I intended to do that for quite a long time now but never braced myself for it because the last film by Mikhalkov that I've seen was to me a complete waste of time, I don't even remember it's name or what it was about except that it was "patriotic", or at least Russian media hailed it as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
I was going to watch "12" as I had already seen "12 Angry Men" and was just curious. Maybe I will, after all. :wink:
Not much hope for a review. :-) I never wrote them and I'm not a great fan of cinema anyway. A couple of words, maybe. :wink:Quote:
If not, would you be willing to watch it and then post a review???
Не всё измеряется количеством денег. В Голливуде компании снимают кино на свои деньги и не бегают в министерство культуры за подачками, и провалы им не нужны, поэтому даже в самый паршивый сериал привлекаются талантливые актеры, а к сценариям требования ещё жестче. Отсюда и качество их фильмов и говничество наших, когда сценарии дают писать разным "гениальным" бредунам, близким к кормушке, вроде Михалкова, - верным вассалам идей дерьмократии. Для таких шпанец из Дома-2 уже Актёр с большой буквы. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by delog
:sorry: Would one of the very talented people would understands BOTH Russian AND English please read the above posts for me and let me know if they are just chats or if they have wonderful fantastic information that I would just love to know but unfortunately will never because I am not educated in your wonderful Russian language?
I sincerely want everyone to feel comfortable posting on this thread, whether it be in Russian or English as I value all comments, big or small (even a one sentence review E-Learner!); however, I just need someone to please, please, please, help me out whenever you see a post in Russian, to please translate it for me. :good:
Sorry rockzmom. In my own post I said that the best russian language film I've seen is The Return (Возвращения), which came out in 2003. It's my favourite for a few reasons: the acting is great, the scenery gorgeous, and it has a touching story.
I highly recommend it.
Да, именно это и называется "ставить в один ряд". Гораздо уместнее было бы сравнивать с какими-нибудь францускими студиями, например с Gaumont Pictures или Le Film d'Art.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Верно, но всех людей в мире, способных сделать из ничего что-то, можно пересчитать по пальцам, остальные же могут только превращать деньги в исскуство и искусство в деньги (и то не все).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocos
There are no useful (even more so fantastic) information, just a chat (except ski-ops's post, of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
About music in "Stalker" - I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ops
As for "Возвращение" - it's not bad for me. But... I don't share common deligh about it. First of all, the film seemed... Italian or something to me. I mean, I did not recognize Russian environment in it. Say, a house. I never saw houses like that in Russia (of course, it doesn't mean there are not any at all, but it's just my impressions). I think all this looked rather like an Italian house and Italian family. Well, Italian or something. Somewhere in the south. While I was watching the movie, I was not able to understand where it happened - I mean not only a country, but a region or a city, too. I think those guys easily could turn out Europeans, not Russians - there would not be needed to change anything in the movie. So this part was abstract to me. So less the movie touched me.
ski-ops & delog!
Thanks for your lightening fast responses and no need to apologize!!!! I am the one here without the proper skill set.
Though, I have installed the Cyrillic alphabet onto my desktop from
http://www.languagehelpers.com/Russi...nAlphabet.html in hopes that within say, six or seven months, I might actually be able to learn them and pronounce the letters to a level that someone would understand me. :ROFL:
I will add "The Return" to my list and see if I can find a copy online with subtitles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ops
Да, именно это и называется "ставить в один ряд". [/quote:104o8mzj]Quote:
[quote:104o8mzj]Я написала, что современное российское кино - это жалкие потуги на Голливуд.
Простите, delog, но это НЕ называется "ставить в один ряд". Это называется сказать то, что я сказала. Потуги - они потуги и есть.
ski-ops...
How sad....I just read... "Actor Vladimir Garin, who played Andrei, drowned shortly after the end of shooting in a lake near the one where several of the picture's scenes were filmed." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_(2003_film)
There is an 8 minute clip online for anyone who wants to just watch a short bit of the film (no subtitles though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf3TexZCFqo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Oh, that's odd. I read a little about the movie and it was definitely filmed in Russia, not far from St. Petersberg.
I wonder if any other russians noted anything similar when watching the movie. I would hate to think such an element could ruin what should be a character and relationship driven story.
Yeah, it adds another sad element to an already poignant film.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Be it for better or worse, but it turned out to be rather more.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
I’ve watched “12” yesterday. After that I re-watched “12 Angry Men” (1957), just couldn’t help myself .
My overall impression – I like “12 Angry Men” more.
What follows are my impressions, disconnected and inconsistent, of and from different aspects and scenes of “12”.
In my understanding of the word “remake” “12” isn’t a remake of “12 Angry Men”. Although many details of the original story are kept intact, the story as a whole is used just as a framework for depicting contemporary Russia. My impression is that they packed too much into this film and were unable to cope with it properly.
They did a good job in making the film to feel Russian. After one particular episode I found myself thinking: "It just couldn’t be like that in the original but it’s exactly how it must be!” And sure enough, re-watching “12 Angry Men”, I found that scene remarkably different.
It’s a scene where they vote for the very first time.
Americans:
The chairman invites to vote guilty. People raise their hands. People keep their hands raised so that the chairman could count them, which he does: “One, two, three, four, five, six, seven …. (a pause, one man didn’t raise his hand) eight, nine, ten, eleven.” The procedure is repeated for “not guilty”. One man. Somebody says: “Boy, oh boy. There’s always one.”
People are unpleasantly surprised. They are annoyed. Still, their attitude is of “Well, s**t happens, but nothing’s extraordinary there, we will cope with this, one way or the other.”
Russians:
Somebody asks for clarification whether the first vote is for guilty or not guilty and somebody else says: “Did you ever vote? Just raise your hand and all will be OK!” (It’s a joke, of course, but truthful and, in the circumstance, frightening joke.) The chairman invites to vote guilty. People raise their hands. Somebody, habitually, says “unanimous”. People immediately start leaving the table. The chairman insists that the procedure should be completed. People return (nobody has the slightest idea that somebody didn’t vote, nobody can even imagine that that could happen). Voting for not guilty. The chairman, habitually, begins to say “no….” and then notices a man with a raised hand, as he’s sitting not far away. It takes some time for the idea to sink in.
People are stunned.
Now, I don’t know whether the American procedure is depicted true to the American character, you tell me that, but I can tell you that that scene in “12” feels painfully truthful.
I think that story of “12 Angry Men” isn’t very believable on Russian material. Or maybe they didn’t know how to make it believable. Also, acting. It wasn’t very convincing. I don’t know who’s to blame for that - actors or scriptwriters. One scene was especially painful to watch. It’s the last speech of the man who was the last to surrender. It was clearly constructed so as to bring tears to viewers’ eyes. In my case it failed to do that utterly (the American one succeeded).
And the last thing. “12” is quite openly politically charged. I don’t like that sort of thing and I don’t want to talk about it.
Yes, you indeed do more! E-learner, you did a fanstastic job on your review ! :bravo:Quote:
Originally Posted by E-learner
I may have to rewatch 12 Angry Men myself after I watch 12.
Both my husband and I have served on American Jury Trials. They were both one day simple trials. I asked him this question as well and both of us remember that we did paper ballots and it was after a brief discussion of the facts. It was not right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by E-learner
Now, in my trial, in the courtroom after the vertict was read, our jury was asked for a "poll." This can be done and it means that we were eached asked our verdict in the case
http://law.jrank.org/pages/9266/Polling-Jury.html.
Book Talk!!!
We haven’t talked about books too much and I want to for just a quick few minutes.
As I mentioned, I purchased the three books from the “Watch” series that are available here in the U.S. (the fourth one had a printing error and is scheduled to come out in March).
I started reading Night Watch the first chapter takes the reader to the Moscow Metro and listed several names of stops. I wondered if these were actual names of stops or made up ones so I went to the computer and pulled up a map of the Metro and sure enough, there on the Orange Line (or do you call it line 6?), were the stops from the book; Prospekt Mira, Rizhskaya, Alekseevskaya, and Exhibition (it takes so little to amuse me)!
Also during the first few pages, the main character, Anton, is listening to music. The lyrics from the song he is listening to are printed in the book and they are of course in English. I wondered what the corresponding song was in the original Russian version. I sent off a PM to the forum member who suggested the movie to see if they had a copy of the book since they had mentioned that they had read it. They did and scanned for me not only the pages that had the song, but the cover of their book as well (you forum people are so nice :good: ).
It turns out that the same song was used for both books. A song by the group, “Blackmore's Night” called “Shadow Of The Moon” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArOS_WsT1tw
Now, what is even more interesting to me was that the lyrics in the Russian version, were also in English and when I saw the scanned page from the Russian book, I immediately noticed that the lyrics had several typographical errors.
The lyrics should read:
Feel no sorrow, feel no pain
Feel no hurt, there’s nothing gained…
Only love will then remain,
She would say.
Here is a scan of that page.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/q...ghtWatch-1.jpg
I also thought that the Russian cover was much better than the U.S. cover. With the U.S. cover, you have no clue as to what the book might be about. The Russian cover at least gives you a clue that the book has vampires. Now, of course, this could be good or bad, if you want the element of surprise… On the back of the U.S. book, the description does state… “Others. They walk among us, observing. Set in contemporary Moscow, where shape shifters, vampires, and street sorcerers linger in the shadows, Night Watch is the first book of the hyper-imaginative fantasy trilogy from bestselling Russian author Sergei Lukyanenko.” Now to be honest, based upon that and the boring cover, I probably would not have bought this book.
Here are copies of both covers.
RU Version
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/q...ghtWatch-1.jpg
US Version
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/q...ghtWatch-1.jpg
Olya,
While I pondered how to repond to your posts, I realized that you actually made an excellent supportive argument for my original post and proved my reasons why people should see this film.
Before I get into the main text here, I did want to answer one quick question that you have asked about the film:
At the beginning of the film, as the jurors are getting ready to leave the courtroom and go to the school, the neighbor asks the bailiff if she can have her photos back that she gave to the judge and he tells her no. So the neighbor herself gave them over as evidence.Quote:
Where on [s:27whvxag]E[/s:27whvxag]earth did the character of Makovetsky get that stupid photo of the female neighbour where the [s:27whvxag]killed's[/s:27whvxag] murdered husband's wife was cut [s:27whvxag]off[/s:27whvxag] out?
Now, onto my response…
Most of the items in the film that could be considered “flaws” by some, for me just weren’t germane enough points in the story to matter. It is just like the flashback scenes, to me, they were not relevant, they could have been 100% accurate or not, it did not matter to what I considered the main point of the movie.
Each person brings with them their own unique experiences and viewpoints into a situation, into this Forum and Thread. For you, it appears that the movie was not realistic, because you have not experienced or witnessed firsthand a number of things that happened in the film or simply could not believe them to be true and this took away from your film experience. You could not suspend belief and this is a major thing that needs to happen for a person to “enjoy” a film. While I on the other hand, eitehr didn't care or could believe them to true and even if I had a little difficulty with them, I decided that possibly, just possibly they could be true.
Let me try to illustrate by using just one comment you made in your post (I could cite examples for each one) :
Apparently, you have been very fortunate in your life and have never experienced or known anyone who has experienced Domestic Abuse. I on the other hand, have witnessed firsthand a wife throwing one of those old heavy telephones at her husband’s head without any warning. Literality ripping it out of the wall as she did it, only because she was angry with him. And just as in the movies, it happened so quickly, I was unable to utter any sound and therefore unable to warn the man that he was about to be struck upside the head and to duck.Quote:
Another falsity. Do you really believe that a wife can throw a [s:27whvxag]smoothing[/s:27whvxag] smoldering iron at her husband silently, without any word or scream just one second after he gave a slight clip on the back of the son's head?
So, for me Olya, this is not a “falsity.” This is not some made up fictional story line that could never happen and this is part of what I bring to the table versus what you or someone else would bring to the table. It is how we are different and how our backgrounds and views of the world would lead us to maybe find someone innocent versus guilty. To have compassion in a particular circumstance or not. It proves the entire point of the film.
We all have emotional, psychological and prejudicial baggage that we carry around with us. It clouds our judgment, for better or worse. This film helps explore those differences whether they be Russian, Chechenian, Jewish, American, doctor, undertaker, circus performer, scientist or something in between IF we open up our minds to the possibility that they exist.
Aha... I see. I didn't remember that, thank you. But I still think that she wouldn't have any reasons to give herself those photos to the court (and she could did it only herself as she's just a witness), and I do find it very strange.Quote:
At the beginning of the film, as the jurors are getting ready to leave the courtroom and go to the school, the neighbor asks the bailiff if she can have her photos back that she gave to the judge and he tells her no. So the neighbor herself gave them over as evidence.
As for that a wing of a house under construction can't be planned on a place of another habitable house, it's not a question of my experience or unexperience – it's just a LAW. You would never get a permission on building until another house is demolished.
As for that no one says a word about the guy's testimony – it's not a question of my experience either, it's just the simplest logic.
And, you know, I actually don't mean that a viewer can't "enjoy" this film. Of course he can. Because this film actually is a show. I don't mean anything humiliating here. I just mean it's a show, with a good picture, popular actors, some effects like throwing a knife, and so on. So yes, of course, one can enjoy it. Why not enjoy a show? But don't tell me there is truth about people in that film.
Please help me to understand. Please educate me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Are you saying that you are in no way, shape or form prejudice? And that you have never witnessed or experience any prejudice in your entire life? No racial, religious, political or sexual bias? That this does not exist in Russia at all?
Is this the experience of others in Russia as well?
When I ask this, I am NOT being accusatory or sarcastic; I am genuinely wanting to know because I find it astonishing if this is the case.
Oh, no, rockzmom, you didn't understand me well. If you mean that the movie is about prejudice, that it tries to touch upon that problem, I completely agree with you. When I said there is no "truth" in the movie, I did not mean that there is no prejudice in life. I meant that too many details in the movie seemed completely false to me, and that the attempt to make a good movie about prejudice was not successful (in my opinion). The characters, the events, the logic, the circumstances - a lot of them seemed untruthful to me, and the movie itself didn't touch me.
Unfortunately I didn't watch the original movie, but while watching the Mikhalkov's one I had a feeling that the whole plot is dragged for ears. So I agree with Оля. But may be it's for people who like psychological (fiction :spiteful: ) drama with good actors.
:shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Я хотел сказать что сюжет за уши притянут, просто буквально на английский перевёл. :oops: Просто настолько всё надуманно, что лучше бы было переносить действие куда-нибудь в будущее на Марс, и на таком антураже делать римейк.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
To steal a quote from another movie, "Yes. Yes, a thousand times, yes!" That was exactly what I was trying to express.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Basil77, Welcome to the Thread! And... nicely worded comment and smiley to boot!!! :good:Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Next movie review.... Day Watch & 17 Moments of Spring coming up soon....
Also, has anyone seen any of the movies from the Golden Globe Awards?
Slumdog Millionaire http://www.foxsearchlight.com/slumdogmillionaire/ (won Best Motion Picture - Drama)
Frost/Nixon http://www.frostnixonthemovie.com/
Revolutionary Road http://www.revolutionaryroadmovie.com/
The Curious Case Of Benjamin Button http://www.benjaminbutton.com/
The Reader http://thereader-movie.com/
Waltz With Bashir http://waltzwithbashir.com/ (won Best Foreign Language Film)
If so, even though they aren't "Russian" films, I would love to hear what you thought about them!! :D
Lingvo says it's "far-fetched" in English. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
I'll translate it for rockzmom since she asks us to write in English in this thread and since I want to second your opinion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
It's just so much farfetched that it would be better to move the action to the future and to Mars and to make a remake in that environment.
Actually that's exactly what I think, too.
Ouch! Et tu, Basil77?Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
You know, IF my book ever gets published and turned into a movie, I really hate to think which planet you will send my plot to. Or maybe it would be a black hole??? :search:
I am seeing a pattern here.... Russians against (correction WAY against), Non-Russians pro.
With that, here might be a really short and sweet (tounge in cheek) review of the movie "12"
If you are Russian, don't expect to enjoy this film. The plot is awful and filled with too many impossible situations that in no way could it ever happen. Russian film makers trying to make Hollywood style movie while also trying to make a political statment.
If you aren't Russian, expect to that you will be able to suspend belief and enjoy this film with good acting and an interesting psychological view of prejudice in Russian that can easily mirror the prejudice in our society as a whole.
Does that about sum it up??? :pardon:
im looking foward to the Russians' review of обитаемый остров :D
You know, it has been a subject of some VERY heated debates. Basically, most people who have seen it are split in two camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo
People from camp one typically say: "This movie sucks because... <a very, very long list or reasons follows>"
People from camp two listen to all those reasons and reply: "So what? It is still good!" :)
The thing "To be continued... IN THREE MONTHS" is not good, I think. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by translationsnmru
i came very close to watching it yesterday but went for сказки на ночь instead (which, to my surprise, i actually quite enjoyed).
i think ill wait until i can download it and see if it's any worse than груз 200 which currently is the worst russian movie i have ever seen :bravo:
Еще есть "Морфий" того же режиссера. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo
x-rated
[video:v1705ava]http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=5tRf9SY9U-A[/video:v1705ava]
rockzmom
Since you've already started reading russian books I realy recommend "The Master and Margarita" by Mikhail Bulgakov.
This is a novell about the Devil visiting Moscow. Bulgakov was sure that it would never be published. And he had been writing it for 10 years just for fun.
But the shortend version of the novell was first published in 1966 (Bulgakov died in 1940)
BappaBa,Quote:
Originally Posted by BappaBa
After viewing that lovely graphic clip (thank goodness the girls were not here... you should have put a rating on that thing :shock: ) and having absolutely no clue as to what this movie is about, I seriously doubt that I will watch this artistic masterpiece!
Lt. Columbo, I'll let you watch this one for me FIRST, and let me know what you think!
Waterlaz,Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlaz
Thanks. 10 years you say and just for fun... So there is hope that I might one day finish my book and have it published? I hope it won't happen AFTER I die; but, then again... if my plot line is not believable enough...
I found a copy at my local library that was translated by Burgin/Tiernan O'Connor. Accroding to a review on Amazon, that is actually the best translation.
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Margari.../dp/0679760806
There is also a copy online available to download on Scribd with the translation by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky, http://d.scribd.com/docs/1hvmrod47havddplanto.pdf
I did get my copy of Ilf & Petrov's, The Twelve Chairs that I found on eBay. The copy is from 1961 and was originally $1.25. It has a very interesting introduction written by Maurice Friedberg from Hunter College that speaks about Russo-American relations. Here is a "small" part of that introduction ...
"It has long been my considered opinion that strains in Russo-American relations are inevitable as long as the average American persists in picturing the Russian as a gloomy, moody, unpredictable individual, and the average Russian in seeing the American as childish, cheerful and, on the whole, rather primitive. …
...There are two ways to correct these misconceptions. One would be to import into Russia a considerable number of sober, serious-minded, Russian-speaking American tourists, in exchange for an identical number of cheerful, logical, English-speaking Russians who would visit America. The other, less costly form of cultural exchange would be for the Russians to read more of Hawthorne, Melville, Faulkner, and Tennessee Williams, and for us to become better acquainted with the less solemn- though not at all less profound- Russians. We would do well to read more of Gogol, Saltykov-Shchedrin, Chekhov (the short stories and the one-act plays) and – among Soviet authors – to read Mikhail Zoshchenko and Ilf and Petrov. Thus, in its modest way, the present volume – though outwardly not very “serious” – should contribute to our better understanding of Russia and the Russians and aid us in facing the perils of peaceful coexistence.”
:)Quote:
Thanks. 10 years you say and just for fun... So there is hope that I might one day finish my book and have it published? I hope it won't happen AFTER I die; but, then again... if my plot line is not believable enough...
After one of Bulgakov's plays were banned he burned the first version of "The Master and Margarita".
sorry, my fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom