Thread: happy news

[quote=kalinka_vinnie]

Originally Posted by BlackMage

Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":1czpv3xy

increasingly pointless war

Tell that to the democratic peoples of Iraq.

It is your "democratic peoples" of Iraq who want us out. Not only the insurgents.

My opinion is just the longer we stay, the worse it is going to get. Our presence is not helping the situation, but worsening it. Almost all rebuilding progress has been hampered and sabotaged. At times when our deficit is larger it has every been in the history of US, do we really want to stay in Iraq another 2,5,10 years?

BTW, which "democratic peoples of Iraq" asked us to invade them in the first place?[/quote:1czpv3xy]

By your logic we should never have fought WW2 because the Jews never asked for our help.

Originally Posted by BlackMage

By your logic we should never have fought WW2 because the Jews never asked for our help.

News alert:

We didn't fight the war to help the Jews. We fought the war because the Japanese attacked US. Let us get the facts straight. The war did not start to save the jews, be it UK, France, Russia or anybody. Just as this war wasn't started to 'save' the Iraqis.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

BTW, which "democratic peoples of Iraq" asked us to invade them in the first place?

I'm refuting your point, using a historical example.

(We can fight a war though the oppressed peoples haven't asked us.)

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

... We fought the war because the Japanese attacked US.
...

Let me rephrase this one. We fought the war because we let the Japanese attacked US. And I will add, to have a good reason to go to war.

But we aren't fighting the war to free the opressed people of Iraq. No country has ever gone to war for the express purpose of freeing "opressed people", there is always more important reasons to the country in question.

Offical reasons for war:
(1) to eliminate Saddam's weapons of mass destruction (WMD); (mission accomplished (in 1991))
(2) to diminish the threat of international terrorism; (err... uh... well... not yet)
and (3) to promote democracy in Iraq and surrounding areas

So, since (1) falls away (a fact that should not be ignored), (2) is getting worse with every day, is the whole muslim world is chanting love songs yet?
we are left with (3) Shotgun democracy. The people are so free that they are free of security, stability and money. We can obviously see the democracy florishing in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and so on.

Admit it, the war is pointless. At least Afghanistan was successful, we had the world on our side. We went ot Iraq against the world, oh how that helps the American image. We are undoing ourselves.

Originally Posted by BlackMage

I'm refuting your point, using a historical example.

(We can fight a war though the oppressed peoples haven't asked us.)

It is not that simple. There's so many countries with oppressed people and nothing will be done unless there's something that is worth helping them, which would be things like the wealth of the earth, the location of the country, and so forth.

Originally Posted by Spiderkat

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

... We fought the war because the Japanese attacked US.
...

Let me rephrase this one. We fought the war because we let the Japanese attacked US. And I will add, to have a good reason to go to war.

I don't know, I have also heard that theory. Note that the U.S. didn't declare war on Germany, Germany did on the U.S. 11 December 1941, three days after the U.S. declared war on Japan.

But of course U.S. wasn't totally neutral in the conflict, lending alot of money and equipment to the U.K. at the time. It wasn't in U.S.'s best interest to have a Nazi Europe.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

...
But of course U.S. wasn't totally neutral in the conflict, lending alot of money and equipment to the U.K. at the time. It wasn't in U.S.'s best interest to have a Nazi Europe.

I agree. A Nazi Westhern Europe and a communist Eastern Europe wasn't the US government's best interest, although some American compagnies and holdings were happy with it.

Why we went to war can be debated all you want.... but it won't solve anything. The reason we are still there is what is important now. It is pretty clear why we are still in Iraq. Everybody pretty much is aware that if we pull out tomorrow the real bloodbath would begin and after the killing had stopped Iraq would be nothing more than another Afgahnistan complete with terrorists training camps. Even President Putin ( of whom, is one of the few leaders I have great respect for) has said that Bush can not pull out yet.

All of this bickering by so called world leaders about pulling out of Iraq is only making us have to stay longer by giving insurgents hope that if they only hold out a little longer they will win.

Lastly for all those that thought that we could just go in there and get out quick. When has history showed that this was possible? Look how long the allies have been in Germany and Japan.

"Tell that to the democratic peoples of Iraq."

They won't be very democratic for long... just like middle ages europe wasn't democratic... any society that allows religion/philosophy/dogma to govern everything will have problems because not everyone has the same religion/philosophy.

Also, argueing about something like this is pretty silly as everyone taking part has their minds set in a certain frame and will, most likely, not be swayed by a conversation on an online Forum...

Originally Posted by DDT

...
Lastly for all those that thought that we could just go in there and get out quick. When has history showed that this was possible? Look how long the allies have been in Germany and Japan.

You can't make this kind of comparaison because Germany was a strategic location during the cold war. That's the only reason why they stayed that long, and also to rebuild the country they had completely destroyed.

But I agree, it would be foolish to ask the US army to leave Iraq tomorrow. The thing is whether they stay or leave won't help this country. They stupidly thought that Iraqi would have acclaimed and welcomed the US army the same way it happened in Europe. Plus, so many lies and bullshиt had been told concerning the so called "rescue", and this didn't help the situation either.

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

They won't be very democratic for long.

Actually I agree with that. So, the problem now is should we just give up and walk away knowing there will be a blood bath or at least try to ensure that there won't be too much killing by sticking around a little longer? Do you want to be the politician that makes that decision?

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

Also, argueing about something like this is pretty silly as everyone taking part has their minds set in a certain frame and will, most likely, not be swayed by a conversation on an online Forum...

If your objective is to get everyone to think like you then yes it would be silly to try.

I think there are other reasons to express you opinion besides just getting other people to agree with you. And I am willing to listen to people that I disagree with as well.

Originally Posted by Spiderkat

You can't make this kind of comparaison because Germany was a strategic location during the cold war. That's the only reason why they stayed that long, and also to rebuild the country they had completely destroyed.
.

I donknow SpiderKat, seems like you just explained my point about staying in Iraq real nice with this post!!!

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

They won't be very democratic for long.

Actually I agree with that. So, the problem now is should we just give up and walk away knowing there will be a blood bath or at least try to ensure that there won't be too much killing by sticking around a little longer? Do you want to be the politician that makes that decision?

You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Opinion parts on how damned you will be in either case.

We will be paying for mistakes for a long time, fellas.

Oh look! We have really stuffed up Biancas thread haven't we?

Originally Posted by Spiderkat

They stupidly thought that Iraqi would have acclaimed and welcomed the US army the same way it happened in Europe.

Whatever you may think of your government, I don't believe they are that stupid. The result of that war was obvious to pretty much everyone from the very beginning (Saddam will be caught or killed, no WMD will be found, the economic and political infrastructures of the country will be ruined, no "democracy" will be possible to implement, the US army will be stuck in the destroyed country on the brink of civilian war). And if all that was outweighed by certain private interests of a small group of people, so what? I am not judging. At some point I lived in the USSR, the other "truly democratic country helping the oppressed people all over the world". It's amazing how well the US government's BS mirrors the one I was exposed to in the 70s-80's

Originally Posted by DDT

Oh look! We have really stuffed up Biancas thread haven't we?

Thanks! 4 pages in 1 day. Not bad!

Originally Posted by adoc

Whatever you may think of your government, I don't believe they are that stupid.

Actually it's not mine but it's doesn't matter. I didn't say they're stupid but the idea of theirs.

Originally Posted by adoc

so what?

To me there's no point invading a country to create a bigger mess, and especially when the reasons are only based on lies.

Originally Posted by Biancca

Well this doesn't have to do with Russian but I am really happy because my brother is finally on his way home from Iraq. Now both of my brothers have been sent to war against their will and shot at and all of those things. One of my brothers still has nightmares about it all the time, and because they gave him experimental drugs he has some health problems too. Go U.S.A.!

Очень хорошая новость! Спасибо, что поделилась с нами. Главное, что живы твои братья! Сразу вспомнилась песня:
http://67.104.22.37/russ/mp3/songs/vv100_03.mp3

Подумаешь — в семье не очень складно,
Подумаешь — неважно с головой,
Подумаешь — с работою неладно, —
Скажи ещё спасибо, что живой.

Ну что ж такого — мучает изжога?
Ну что ж такого — не пришёл домой?
Ну что ж такого — наказали строго? —
Скажи ещё спасибо, что живой.

Нечего играть с судьбою в прятки!
Так давай, кривая, вывози!
В общем, всё нормально, всё в порядке,
Всё, как говорится, "на мази"!

Что-что? Партнёр играет слишком грубо?
Что-что? Приснился ночью домовой?
Что-что? На ринге выбили два зуба?
Скажи ещё спасибо, что живой.

Да ладно — потерял алмаз в опилках,
Ну, ладно, что на финише другой,
Да ладно — потащили на носилках,
Скажи ещё спасибо, что живой.

Нечего играть с судьбою в прятки!
Так давай, кривая, вывози!
В общем, всё нормально, всё в порядке,
И, как говорится, "на мази"!

Неважно, что не ты играл на скрипке,
Неважно, что ты бледный и худой,
Неважно, что побили по ошибке,
Скажи ещё спасибо, что живой.

Всё правильно: кто хочет — тот и может,
Всё верно: в каждом деле выбор — твой,
Всё так; но вот одно меня тревожит:
Кому сказать спасибо, что живой?

И нечего играть с судьбою в прятки!
Так давай, кривая, вывози!
В общем, всё нормально, всё в порядке,
Всё, как говорится, "на мази"!