Thread: God's Name

Originally Posted by Hanna

1) Islam recognises Jesus as a major prophet, but not (I think?) as the son of God.
2) Islam is the religion of the decendants of Hagar in the Old testament. (The woman who got kicked out into the desert by Jacob, together with her son She gets treated in a terrible way, in my opinion! ).

Point 1: absolutely, yes.
Point 2: that would be the descendancy legend but not the origin of Islam, as that traces back only to Mohammed.

@ Crocodile: all that text of yours needs is the right kind of scroll to be written on and hidden in a cave somewhere and in 2000 years' time someone will find it and believe it. And as the internet forgets nothing that may already be on its way to happen.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

@ Crocodile: all that text of yours needs is the right kind of scroll to be written on and hidden in a cave somewhere and in 2000 years' time someone will find it and believe it. And as the internet forgets nothing that may already be on its way to happen.

I think the history of religions would develop the other way. Have you heard about the Googlism? => » The Church of Google
That's just a start, I guess ...

Actually it's a good one and no less insane than the contenders.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

Actually it's a good one and no less insane than the contenders.

Right, but it's lacking that 'ancestor' polish, so it's no good for the traditionalists who 'deeply respect' each others' mature religions and scorn the new ones as the 'sects'.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

Actually it's a good one and no less insane than the contenders.

Wait till they start convering heathens who use other search engines, browsers and/or operating system. By the sword if necessary. All churches do that at some point.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think the history of religions would develop the other way. Have you heard about the Googlism? => » The Church of Google
That's just a start, I guess ...

Matrix loves you, Neo!

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Matrix loves you, Neo!

It's not about the Matrix, really. Have you happen to read Stanislaw Lem "Osmotr na meste?"

Originally Posted by Hanna

I hope we haven't scared off Misha Tal (who started the thread) with all this talk about Christianity.

Not in the least!

You see, there are such things as "mid-term exams". And one might happen to have to take four of them in a row. During these delightful days, I don't shave, eat, drink, sleep, nothing. I just study to death! That's the only reason I've been away.

Actually, I'm not a very good representative of Muslims, because I'm not an especially religious person. And I don't enjoy playing the devil's advocate in religious discussions (indeed, in any discussion). I find other forum members' opinions very interesting, and in many cases I feel obliged to modify my own beliefs.

The initial post of this thread had little to do with religion in the abstract sense. But I'm glad about the turn the discussion has taken. I'll throw in my own two cents in a later post. Just to answer your own question about the word "Allah":

I have a very modest knowledge of the Arabic language, but this much I know for certain: in Arabic "al" is a definite article, like the English "the". The word "Elah" means "god", so "Allah" is something like a proper noun [The God], used to indicate a God other than other gods. And yes, Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God. All Abrahamic religions have the same origin. But that doesn't keep the believers from religious hatred.

Originally Posted by Hanna

1) Islam recognises Jesus as a major prophet, but not (I think?) as the son of God.
2) Islam is the religion of the decendants of Hagar in the Old testament. (The woman who got kicked out into the desert by Jacob, together with her son She gets treated in a terrible way, in my opinion! ).

Point 1: Absolutely correct, as bitpicker has noted. In fact, Jesus Christ is praised in the highest terms in all Islamic texts. And the first time I read about Saint Mary in Quran, I was almost moved to tears. True, that was long ago...

Point 2: I don't know about the Christian sources, but according to the Islamic sources, Hagar was left in the desert by Abraham (not Jacob, who was Abraham's grandson, I think). Mohammad was a descendant of Ismael, Hagar's son.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Point 1: Absolutely correct, as bitpicker has noted. In fact, Jesus Christ is praised in the highest terms in all Islamic texts. And the first time I read about Saint Mary in Quran, I was almost moved to tears. True, that was long ago...

Point 2: I don't know about the Christian sources, but according to the Islamic sources, Hagar was left in the desert by Abraham (not Jacob, who was Abraham's grandson, I think). Mohammad was a descendant of Ismael, Hagar's son.

Mohamed had very poor knowledge of Tora and Bible so there are numerous times in the Koran where he makes mistakes and gets confused about names and such. For example Mohamed claimed that Moses was raised by Egyptian king's wife instead of his daughter. This is why Mohamed had to cover his mistakes by saying the "Jews changed the Bible". However in your case Mohamed was right. Abraham kicked Ishmael and his mother out, not Jacob. But mohamed goes on the say the Ishmael received the "Birthright" when clearly, he did not. That's why he was kicked out, so that their would be no dispute over Isaac receiving the Birthright.

Also, Mohamed's praise for Jesus is in name only. Mohamed did not believe the things that Jesus preached as a matter fact Mohamed preached the exact opposite of Jesus and performed works contrary to Jesus. Jesus did not behead his enemies nor did he enslave their wives. Mohamed preached jihad, while Jesus told his disciples to "shake the dust from your coat and move on when people do not receive your gospel."

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cold

Mohamed had very poor knowledge of Tora and Bible...

In fact, Mohammad had no such knowledge whatsoever. The fact that he was illiterate is explicitly stated in Quran. According to the Islamic faith, neither Quran nor Tora were written by mere mortals. Moses, Jesus and Mohammad were not "writers". They didn't make things up. They were only "messengers".

As for your anti-Islam rhetoric, it only proves my point about religious hatred.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

In fact, Mohammad had no such knowledge whatsoever. The fact that he was illiterate is explicitly stated in Quran. According to the Islamic faith, neither Quran nor Tora were written by mere mortals. Moses, Jesus and Mohammad were not "writers". They didn't make things up. They were only "messengers".

But it should be said that nothing in the New Testament is attributed to Jesus as a writer, it's more like a biography. And the books about Moses aren't written by the Moses person either, it would be very strange for him to say things like "he was born on..." and especially "he died then and there and afterwards...". In fact it has been established that the five Biblical books of Moses are themselves collections of texts spanning generations and which are even mutually exclusive and internally inconsistent. So the only factual writer (or rather illiterate narrator whose uttered words were written down directly or at a later date according to hearsay) among these is Mohammad. Whether such dictation is divinely influenced or not remains a matter of faith alone.

So are Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox more or less the same?

I noticed that they were clubbed together in the chart that Ramil linked to.
I thought the chard was pretty good although I am only aware of the main differences between protestants and catholics. The rest is pretty much unknown to me...

When I go to church here in the UK, I go to a Baptist church, mainly because I know some people there, it's really close to my house and the minister is very good. I haven't noticed anything that's different from Lutheranism, other than less emphasis on formality and lithurgy.

A question for the Orthodox Christians here:
Do you think that the Russian Orthodox church lost some of it's credibility during the Soviet era, or do you think that it's stayed true to it's creed?

I read a comment on a news paper article were someone were saying that the Russian state and the Church are now TOO close, instead of the opposite way around earlier. The comment was claiming that the church is getting more influence and money than it deserves, and that it is in cohorts with the United Russia party. Is this a common opinion? (That doesn't seem very shocking to me, coming from a country that has a "state church" there are some benefits with this system as long as it is not abused.)

Originally Posted by Hanna

A question for the Orthodox Christians here:
Do you think that the Russian Orthodox church lost some of it's credibility during the Soviet era, or do you think that it's stayed true to it's creed?

The question has wrong address. The Orthodox Church should not be criticized by the Orthodox Christians. It's a necessary condition of the religion.

Originally Posted by Hanna

[B]So are Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox more or less the same?

More or less. Close to a point they recognize each other and the titles of the clergy. )))

Originally Posted by Hanna

A question for the Orthodox Christians here:
Do you think that the Russian Orthodox church lost some of it's credibility during the Soviet era

I'd say, yes. But they lost their credibility even more during the post-Soviet times, because of this you wrote about:

Originally Posted by Hanna

I read a comment on a news paper article were someone were saying that the Russian state and the Church are now TOO close, instead of the opposite way around earlier. The comment was claiming that the church is getting more influence and money than it deserves, and that it is in cohorts with the United Russia party. Is this a common opinion? (That doesn't seem very shocking to me, coming from a country that has a "state church" there are some benefits with this system as long as it is not abused.)

Russia is a multi-confessional state and the way they're throwing Orthodox Christianity at people's faces turns even the stomacs of faithful christians (or at least some of them). The church must not mess with politics which they do all the time. There are too many officials and politicians in the ranks of Russian Orthodox clergy. This doesn't mean that all of them are corrupt. Some still do what they must do as priests and provide as little comfort as they can to the followers.
I visit a church nearby from time to time, but I feel more 'connected' to God when I'm outside. )))

Wow, some very "advanced" Christians here!

I want to ask about the Patriarch. What precisely is his exaxt role in the Orthodox church.
How many patriarchs are there?

(sorry about my bad English earlier, full of typos!)

After reading this discussion about the conception of Jesus being the God, it became more clear for me why we, Orthodox Christians count Easter the main religious holiday (the holiday more dedicated to Christ's divinity), while for Catholics and Protestants main holiday is Christmas wich more dedicated to his human incarnation.

Originally Posted by Basil77

After reading this discussion about the conception of Jesus being the God, it became more clear for me why we, Orthodox Christians count Easter the main religious holiday (the holiday more dedicated to Christ's divinity), while for Catholics and Protestants main holiday is Christmas wich more dedicated to his human incarnation.

This also always seemed odd to me that people celebrate his birth so much more than the miracle of his re-birth. There would not be a Christmas if not for the Easter, correct? So, why is the emphasis not placed on celebrating, worshiping, making atonement on Easter? I never understood that. I'm glad to see that I'm now not the ONLY person. THANK YOU, Basil!!!

Despite my beliefs I sometimes disapprove of church and religion even in their 'finer' forms. This doesn't diminish my faith, but wrapping your mind in canonical dogms is not the best way to comprehend God.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Despite my beliefs I sometimes disapprove of church and religion even in their 'finer' forms. This doesn't diminish my faith, but wrapping your mind in canonical dogms is not the best way to comprehend God.

Yeah, I realize you're a heretic. It's ok, we won't burn you for that.