Thread: collapse of the ussr

I would love to see some pictures of a real soviet appartments. Was it like in that movie 'Irony of fate' ?

I don't miss free apartments/free medical aid etc. What I really can't to terms with is the physical separation of big united country by the newly created borders. Grrrr
I can explain it all to myself on intellectual level, but it still feels wrong. Now I think I know how other nations felt when their empires fell.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Mwahahahhaahahah hhahahaha ahhahahahahahahahahahah you've just given me the best proof that you in the West know sod all about what it was like in the Soviet Union. Anyone who grew up in the Soviet Union will tell you that at no point did we have communism in our country, what we did have was socialism and the party leaders said we were building communism, working towards it, but no one in his right mind claimed that we had it.

Believe it or not, this is actually discussed in every history book I've read that covers the USSR. I think the real problem is people in the West don't read, not that the information is unavailable.

[quote=Kamion]

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

BTW, do you know that we never had communism in the Soviet Union?

I

Friendy, are you actually an encyclopedia? You're so cool. You're a human reference library.

Originally Posted by Линдзи

Friendy, are you actually an encyclopedia? You're so cool. You're a human reference library.

Thank you, Lindsay.
(To tell the truth I’m a Wikipedia sister-project (parasitizing my big sister yet) .)

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

You know sweet f... all about what life was like in the Soviet Union and how the society functioned. All you know is horrible propadanda your gov't bottle and then force fed you.

Maybe so, but you dont know the wonders of capitalism.

Originally Posted by BlackMage

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

You know sweet f... all about what life was like in the Soviet Union and how the society functioned. All you know is horrible propadanda your gov't bottle and then force fed you.

Maybe so, but you dont know the wonders of capitalism.

Oh yes I do (I've lived in the west for quite some time, sir), but wonders they aren't. You see, unlike some of you I've had exposure to both world systems and I can certainly compare and contrast them like no one else. I can certainly understand why many Russians don't want your double faced demockracy and think nostalgically about the soviet unioun.

Kind of OT, but I was thinking:

Democracy was tried in ancient Greece but failed because of corruption. Today people are finally "advanced" enough to keep it going.

Communism (or socialism or w/e) was tried in the Soviet Union but failed because of corruption. Maybe we are just not advanced enough yet?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by BlackMage

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

You know sweet f... all about what life was like in the Soviet Union and how the society functioned. All you know is horrible propadanda your gov't bottle and then force fed you.

Maybe so, but you dont know the wonders of capitalism.

Oh yes I do (I've lived in the west for quite some time, sir), but wonders they aren't. You see, unlike some of you I've had exposure to both world systems and I can certainly compare and contrast them like no one else. I can certainly understand why many Russians don't want your double faced demockracy and think nostalgically about the soviet unioun.

I'm gonna concede to you on this one. Now that I think about it every history class I ever took up to high school taught me that the Communists were bad, bad people that wanted to kill us with Cuban Missiles.

I do still like Capitalism, though.

Originally Posted by Линдзи

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Mwahahahhaahahah hhahahaha ahhahahahahahahahahahah you've just given me the best proof that you in the West know sod all about what it was like in the Soviet Union. Anyone who grew up in the Soviet Union will tell you that at no point did we have communism in our country, what we did have was socialism and the party leaders said we were building communism, working towards it, but no one in his right mind claimed that we had it.

Believe it or not, this is actually discussed in every history book I've read that covers the USSR. I think the real problem is people in the West don't read, not that the information is unavailable.

You

Originally Posted by astarz41

Kind of OT, but I was thinking:

Democracy was tried in ancient Greece but failed because of corruption. Today people are finally "advanced" enough to keep it going.

You mean you think modern democracy is free from corruption?

Good Lord.

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by astarz41

Kind of OT, but I was thinking:

Democracy was tried in ancient Greece but failed because of corruption. Today people are finally "advanced" enough to keep it going.

You mean you think modern democracy is free from corruption?

Good Lord.

No...but it's controlled enough to keep it together. Has any government ever been free of corruption?

You think democracy keeps corruption in check, I reckon all the evidence suggests that its exactly the other way around

No, of course there has never been a system totally free of corruption. So what?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

It is a nice apartment. Would you like to see some photos? (But of course you will say I used Photoshop). I have travelled all over and I've seen only a few apartments which were a tad nicer. Just a tad.

OK. I want to take a look at front door, pipes, garbage chute, joints of panels and etc. Let me guess. You have installed new taps, pan, bath and shower (which rather are not "made in USSR"); and Italian wallpaper and tile cover your walls. Definitely you had a problem with chandeliers because it's difficult to find one which is not ugly, fits for 20 square meters room and no longer then half of meter in height because your ceiling is placed in 2.5 meters over your floor.
Actually, I don't like condos at all. I have one only because it's only ten minutes off my job, and there is no bridge in the way*.

*Riga is split by river Daugava, and there are always traffic jams around the bridges.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

For creating and maintaining a regime in the country under which it was possible for realiable building societies to flurish and provide loads of citizens with decent apartments.

In my country, the loads of people could get an apartment only when the regime is gone. My colleague, who is high educated person, was forced to become a builder and built some buildings to get a flat in one of them. It's a miracle that he has the flat now because committee didn't want to give them the flats when the job was done. In the same term, СМУ (строительно-монтажное управление), who had to build the buildings for soviet people, had not finished even one building. The colleague got the flat only because the case was well lighted up in local press, otherwise he got nothing like another building association got.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

It's not about writing laws, it's about enforcing the existing ones.

First of all, it has to be written well (now it's a scrabble of a first grade student). It's easy to fish in trouble waters; and it's impossible to do something if you don't have clear rules.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Yes, I can tell you more - my employer paid 70% - 90% for my trips to the Caucasus, when I was younger my parents employers paid for a nice summer camp for me, etc.

It's possible; but it's another example of "распределение". Ministry share some quantity of "путёвка" between "employers". Your "employer" has some quantity of "путёвка" and shares them between employees. Do you have a problem to pay 100% of trip to Caucasus whenever you want in nowadays? Now you even could get a high extreme trip with full ammunition for free.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

… - I could continue this list. All that stuff I was given credit for by my employers.

That's great. Now anybody can do the same and even pick the most suitable time and place to do that.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I could go paragliding for nothing. I attended free diving lessons at a swimming pool nearby and received a certificate. I could go on and on and on.

So did I.Yep, ДОСААФ was working well. It wasn't easy to pick some sports (gliding is one of them) but still.
Now I pick a club which prices is not so low, because I don't like wait a half an hour to get a barbell.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

You could as far back as Dickensian times and speak of workers being ill-treated by cruel factory owners in the North West of England. All this stuff is irrelevant to the time I'm describing.

I didn't know that Dickens lived in USSR time. The restrictions I meant had been in force since April 1933 till about 1955, but the rules work till 70s. That forced mass escape from villages after the gate was opened.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

It's amazing how you put everything into one pile...

Doesn’t "прописка" limit the movement?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Propiska is not a bad thing, I rather welcome it.

Really!? Why? Because it protects you, isn't it?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

It was never a problem for me nor for anyone I know.

You are really alone alone.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Yes, you could. I rejected raspredelenie - I went elsewhere and paid over a period of a few years - a tiny sum was automatically deducted from my salary by the Bank. Many of my messmates did the same thing.

Rather, it's a lie.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Yes, like certain individuals could change by buying themselves some grey matter. Likely story.

You know; you can change everything.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

But for the vast majority it wasn't. It is now.

There are no exact statistics, but all the sources point to positive trend of alcohol consumption in USSR. For example one of the sources tell us (1950 - 3 litres per person, 1984 - 10 litres per person). Do you remember what the first action of Gorbachev was? Right! "Сухой" закон. Btw, it could be interesting competition in another subject. We could call USSR movies and mark some of them as "alcohol free".

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

We're not trying to make it longer - we don't want it, simple as that.

First of you, I meant you, VM. Second of all, don't talk for all of Russia (it reminds me "по просьбам трудящихся"). And the last but not least, you already have it.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

What calculations? Go to any shop in Russia. I simply could buy more stuff on my monthly salary back then.

Gabber!
I was there. We have prices for most of products which are higher then in Moscow.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And yes it was better quality stuff - we didn't have that Chinese sweatshop sh*te galore back then. Proper Soviet and European workmanship only.

Sometimes Chinese quality is not bad, especially in economy price category. You can choose the price category, isn't it? European and American quality in USSR is a big subject.
Soviet quality? Hm... Some things were really good, and I love them because they were made of metal. What do I like? Meat grinder, juicer, camera "Зенит" (it has a really great optics), raft "ПСН-10", aircraft Ил-76 Hm... That's all.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

However, there are many people trapped between Russia and the ex-Republics, which isn't great at all.

That's really bad. It's a pity the people couldn't get a double citizenship, and some of them, even a single citizenship.

This is quite an interesting subject for me. I had a friend who lives in Чехов and has a good job (police lieut. ) who struggles to get by and even had to take a second lob for a while though he was already over worked.

I know of hundreds Russians and Ukranians who live by me who were glad to get out of their former countries. Some got out during the Soviet times, some recently. It seems to be a trade off for them and they do miss their former culture.

Interestingly enough there is one fellow who has a very interesting story to tell of how he came to be in the USA. My sister met him the other day while on a SCUBA diving activity. He was one of the SIBERIAN SEVEN Has any body heard of this? This guy spent 5 years of his life in the US Embassy in Moscow. Apparrantly the Russian authorities wanted to imprison them for their religious beliefs. At first they were sleeping in the hallways because nobody knew what to do with them. The Americans tried to kick them out but did not want to be seen dragging them out forcefully. He was only 16 years old when he went in.
So, I would like to know what Russians today think of this group.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by Mordan

There is no such thing as a free lunch

BS! If you can read russian just read this http://www.zol.ru/z-news/showlinks.php? ... arknewszol
By "der'mocrats"(der'mo is sh#t in Russian ) statistics in the 1990 (one of the hardest year as I remember) the meat consumption per capita was 68 kg a year, in the 1995 - 48 kg, in the 1999 - 34 kg and even in the 2003 it became 65 kg per capita a year. So, when there was no free lunch? You see, it was not in the USSR, it was in the "democratic" Russia. You shouldn't watch Euronews and BBS too much, it's dangerous to your brain.

Hey my friend, this is an expression. I'm not literally talking about a "lunch". I'm just saying that there is flip side of having something free. Therefore nothing can be free.

The most basic human need—food—is at the heart of the fact that Capitalism is the best system. One has to work for making food. Do you expect the one making food is going to give away for FREE the result of his long hard work? He will want to trade with you, only if you have something that he needs.
Communism ideas are good for intellectual masturbation, but in practice they don't work.

You are currently unhappy because Russia is still recovering from the Soviet System and it will take a generation, just to change the mentality of yours and of the old apparatchiks

Why do I get the feeling after reading this post that you're some naive 15 year old with a shelf full of Ayn Rand novels and email alerts from the Von Mises Institute? Even the "no such thing as a free lunch" cliche is like right out of chapter one in a first-year economics textbook. Let me guess: you're a business major and you believed every last piece of information you were told in school uncritically.

PS: when Russia manages to get on the same wealth level of Europe, you will get a flat as soon as you graduate . I graduated this year and I'm renting a classy flat( with 3 other friends) in the very center of Brussels for a third of my salary.

Yeah, once you've gained national independence and a democratic government it's just a short trip to the land of honey and rainbow kisses. Follow the good witch from the IMF and in no time you'll be in Emerald City. Just like all those utopias down in Africa.

ВЕТЕР, you li'l <censored> - I have a HUGE apartment with ceilings as high as the height of your stupidity and I also own a chalet in Korobitzino, a hunting lodge near Preozersk and a cottage in Lisy Nos that a king wouldn't be ashamed to entertain his guests in. All that property was purchased under the Soviet rule. So go wank yourself blind because it's obvious that you envy me and the thought that someone could be so successful during the Soviet era makes it oh so buttsplitting hard for you to pass your miserable stools in the morning so you go to this forum and post filth and lies about my country like there was no tomorrow. You can't cope with the simple fact that Soviet people are so much better than you.

Still, I wish you a merry xmas, BETEP.

Originally Posted by DDT

So, I would like to know what Russians today think of this group.

So the punk got away? Bugger! (I mean he got away with his lies about my country. At no point did anyone wish to kill 'em for their religious beliefs, the punk simply needed something he could whine about so he invented this nonsense and you readily bought it.)

PS: when Russia manages to get on the same wealth level of Europe, you will get a flat as soon as you graduate . I graduated this year and I'm renting a classy flat( with 3 other friends) in the very center of Brussels for a third of my salary.

Loads of Russian students are renting apartments in St Petersburg for a fraction of their scholarships and wouldn't go to Brussels for all the tea in China because you cheps you're always munching garlic and going oinky-oinky-oinky-oinky. Or have I been misinformed?