Thread: collapse of the ussr

just a simple poll. i know a lot of russians consider this a very painful event. what about you?
please tell where you are from because the answer will surely be different depending on your citizenship, background and location.

when i mean the collapse of the ussr, i don't mean the collapse of communism but the end of the biggest federation of the world that consisted of lots of different nationalities and russian as the international language.

I've voted for bad. I don't care about communism and the cr@p like that but I can compare the nowadays life with life in the USSR. Some things were bad, but a lot of things were good there - free education, free medicine, free apartments, the low crime level, there was no nationalism, there was no unemployment, the church was disestablished of state - it was a real freedom of conscience... etc. I wonder who was against these things? But now... I've read somewhere a phrase "I thought the communists was lieing to us about capitalism but now I see that they said less than a half of truth" and I totally agree with it.

Not sure I agree with this

it was a real freedom of conscience

though....How do you mean?

There is no such thing as a free lunch

Originally Posted by JJ

Some things were bad, but a lot of things were good there - free education, free medicine, free apartments, the low crime level, there was no nationalism, there was no unemployment, the church was disestablished of state - it was a real freedom of conscience... etc. I wonder who was against these things?

I do! Free medicine, free education, free apartments, free, free, free… There are no free things at all. The state has to care about free schools, free first aid and etc service. The rest of your list is a reason of "some things were bad". Don't call those crappy walls as apartment; these are not even a flat. And who's the God who decides "will you have a flat or not"? One of mine colleagues told me how he had got his flat; IMHO, you have to know the concept. Do you really think I want to go this way?
There is no problem with high education because you can get credit. There is no problem with medicine because you have a (often, obligatory) medical insurance. If you are unemployed you can expect for financial assistance from state, but if you don't want to be a white trash find a job.
Actually low level of crime was a positive moment in USSR, but it was only because there was nothing to steal. OK. Just imagine, you had found a million of roubles; what are you going to do next?
What's not right with church in Russia now? Seriously, I have no information. Nationalism is too complicated matter to describe in couple of words. There are too many reasons to grow one up (historical, economical, political end etc).
Nevertheless, if you ask me "bad or good" I would have nothing to say. Moscow was and is a political and economical spado with huge ambitions. In other hand, it could be great union, although a flashback shows us it will never happen, and there are many of reasons.

Originally Posted by Zhenya

Not sure I agree with this

it was a real freedom of conscience

though....How do you mean?

Zhenya, as I remember there were churchies and theological seminaries in the USSR and believers could perform their devotions, for example when my grandma had died my parents ordered a reading the burial service for her becouse she was baptized. Now the church is washing the brains in all media sources ten times stronger than communists did. It's hard to see how priests push the country into the Middle Ages. Btw, don't you know that till recently the church had benefits to import vodka and cigarettes without custom duties? I've read the ROC regulations, it's very interesting document, and they have there 14 items how they can make money and only 1 item how they can spend it for charity.

Originally Posted by Mordan

There is no such thing as a free lunch

BS! If you can read russian just read this http://www.zol.ru/z-news/showlinks.php? ... arknewszol
By "der'mocrats"(der'mo is sh#t in Russian ) statistics in the 1990 (one of the hardest year as I remember) the meat consumption per capita was 68 kg a year, in the 1995 - 48 kg, in the 1999 - 34 kg and even in the 2003 it became 65 kg per capita a year. So, when there was no free lunch? You see, it was not in the USSR, it was in the "democratic" Russia. You shouldn't watch Euronews and BBS too much, it's dangerous to your brain.

Originally Posted by BETEP

I do!

It's a pity.

There are no free things at all.

You're right. There are no free things but it were.

And who's the God who decides "will you have a flat or not"?
One of mine colleagues told me how he had got his flat; IMHO, you have to know the concept. Do you really think I want to go this way?

My brother graduated the UPI in 1982. They had given him a job (they gave jobs to everyone who graduated the institutes, universety or college) and in 1986 he got his first apartment. In a couple of years when he got married they gave him the second apartment. I can tell you about another examples of my co-workers, friends and relatives if you want but now I know about only some persons who is realy reach and can do the same things.

There is no problem with high education because you can get credit. There is no problem with medicine because you have a (often, obligatory) medical insurance. If you are unemployed you can expect for financial assistance from state, but if you don't want to be a white trash find a job.

But who's the God who decides "will you have a credit or not"? In my daughter's class in the school there are some children who are realy smart, but their parents are poor. I bet they'll never get a credit for education and they will never get a good medical insurance. In 10 years they'll all be alcoholics or narcomaniacs or criminals. It couldn't be possible in the USSR.

Actually low level of crime was a positive moment in USSR, but it was only because there was nothing to steal. OK. Just imagine, you had found a million of roubles; what are you going to do next?

What? Do you know that only 15 years ago 2-3 murders a year (200 000 population) was ЧП in my town and the police had a lot of rape sessions untill they caught a killer. Now there are about 2-3 murders a week. I know it well, one of my brothers worked as a deputy chief of the grave crime police department(зам начальника отдела по особо тяжким преступлениям, so called "убойный отдел") in my district. BTW, in spite of the fact that the crime level is high now it is more or less safe for walking in all town's districts at anytime, but the situation is getting worse.

Originally Posted by JJ

I've read somewhere a phrase "I thought the communists was lieing to us about capitalism but now I see that they said less than a half of truth" and I totally agree with it.

Exteremely good saying!
(Except, IMHO, communists were telling 60-70% of truth.)

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by Mordan

There is no such thing as a free lunch

BS! If you can read russian just read this http://www.zol.ru/z-news/showlinks.php? ... arknewszol
By "der'mocrats"(der'mo is sh#t in Russian ) statistics in the 1990 (one of the hardest year as I remember) the meat consumption per capita was 68 kg a year, in the 1995 - 48 kg, in the 1999 - 34 kg and even in the 2003 it became 65 kg per capita a year. So, when there was no free lunch? You see, it was not in the USSR, it was in the "democratic" Russia. You shouldn't watch Euronews and BBS too much, it's dangerous to your brain.

Hey my friend, this is an expression. I'm not literally talking about a "lunch". I'm just saying that there is flip side of having something free. Therefore nothing can be free.

The most basic human need—food—is at the heart of the fact that Capitalism is the best system. One has to work for making food. Do you expect the one making food is going to give away for FREE the result of his long hard work? He will want to trade with you, only if you have something that he needs.
Communism ideas are good for intellectual masturbation, but in practice they don't work.

You are currently unhappy because Russia is still recovering from the Soviet System and it will take a generation, just to change the mentality of yours and of the old apparatchiks

PS: when Russia manages to get on the same wealth level of Europe, you will get a flat as soon as you graduate . I graduated this year and I'm renting a classy flat( with 3 other friends) in the very center of Brussels for a third of my salary.

Originally Posted by Mordan

The most basic human need—food—is at the heart of the fact that Capitalism is the best system.

I don't know how about food, but I still use soap bought in 1980s So, communist distribution saves my money every day.

You are currently unhappy because Russia is still recovering from the Soviet System

Looking at statistics, I'm not sure from what we're recovering. Soviet system had its awful moments, but compared to what Yeltsin did...
Overall I do not want to go back in time, but I do not consider Soviet times all-bad.

PS: when Russia manages to get on the same wealth level of Europe, you will get a flat as soon as you graduate . I graduated this year and I'm renting a classy flat( with 3 other friends) in the very center of Brussels for a third of my salary.

To rent flat isn't to have flat, is it? I had flat before graduation, but I had it due to Soviet Power

Of course, I have never been in a communist country, but I think that capitalism is better, because you have something to work for. In the Soviet Union, no matter how hard you worked or how well you did you could be sure you would always get the same things as the guy in the apartment next to you who never did anything. However, in America, you can be sure that by working very hard you will be rewarded with a better life for you and your family.

Originally Posted by BlackMage

However, in America, you can be sure that by working very hard you will be rewarded with a better life for you and your family.

I don't see too much of that happeneing for most people here.

In the Soviet Union, no matter how hard you worked or how well you did you could be sure you would always get the same things as the guy in the apartment next to you who never did anything.

Not true. Those who worked had it all (I'm speaking from my experience), those who did f... all had basically nothing (just the bare necessities the state provided them with). And didn't you say the following:

Originally Posted by BlackMage

Of course, I have never been in a communist country

You know sweet f... all about what life was like in the Soviet Union and how the society functioned. All you know is horrible propadanda your gov't bottle and then force fed you.

BTW, do you know that we never had communism in the Soviet Union?

Originally Posted by JJ

It's a pity.

For me? No.

Originally Posted by JJ

You're right. There are no free things but it were.

It was not. Economic is an exact science, and if you spend resources for something you must have the resources.

Originally Posted by JJ

My brother graduated the UPI in 1982. They had given him a job (they gave jobs to everyone who graduated the institutes, universety or college) and in 1986 he got his first apartment.

Actually, it was a "распределение". btw, how did he get the "apartment"? Let me guess. Somebody brought him to the building and said "this is a place where you are going to spend the rest of your life". What if he wanted a bigger apartment?

Originally Posted by JJ

I can tell you about another examples of my co-workers, friends and relatives if you want

My friend has an income about 250Ls per month and his wife a close one, and they got a credit for 20000Ls. Now they are living in a three rooms flat which they chose.

Originally Posted by JJ

I know about only some persons who is realy reach and can do the same things.

That is another story. Russian banking is an embryo. People don't have a stable income and don't have a property as a guaranty. The worst thing is there are a few legal businesses to earn. IMHO, it's not a permanent process, but term of the transition depends on Russian people.

Originally Posted by JJ

But who's the God who decides "will you have a credit or not"?

It depends on where do you want to get the money.

1. You can get a bank credit. There are a bunch of banks; just pick one.
For example you can read information here. You are looking for "Ипотечный кредит" or "Кредит на строительство".
Just to compare look at here. I thought this country spawned the language and so far nobody seems to speak it.
2. You can get a credit at your work.
3. You can earn the money.

I can get credit for a washer right in shop, could you do the same? I guess you can do the same in Russia. It's just a first step.

The most important thing is you can choose how could you get the money and what do you want to buy. It's not a life where an uncle decides where you will work and where you will live. Forget the vegetable life. You are the God of you. Welcome to the real world where you can make your own decisions; it's cr@p but you gonna love it.

Originally Posted by JJ

In my daughter's class in the school there are some children who are realy smart, but their parents are poor. I bet they'll never get a credit for education and they will never get a good medical insurance.

Have they made a try to change something. I guess, no.

Originally Posted by JJ

In 10 years they'll all be alcoholics or narcomaniacs or criminals. It couldn't be possible in the USSR.

It's my turn to do "WHAT?". There were not alcoholics in USSR? Oh really? Even at work?
Actually, refresh your memory. How many things are really changed in your life? Just compare what you could do/have/buy in USSR times and now. OK, your neighbour has more then you now, but what about you.

Originally Posted by JJ

What? Do you know that only 15 years ago 2-3 murders a year (200 000 population) …

Read my post carefully. I didn't deny the trend; I just supposed a reason.

PS. The subject is not about USSR as a socialism/capitalism competition. It's about USSR as a union.

Originally Posted by JJ

I can tell you about another examples of my co-workers, friends and relatives if you want

My friend has an income about 250Ls per month and his wife a close one, and they got a credit for 20000Ls. Now they are living in a three rooms flat which they chose.

Here's how it was in my case, son. I chose which building society to invest into and soon I was living in a nice apartment paying a very moderate sum and today that fantastic apartment belongs to me. I'm grateful to the Soviet Union for this. Today most building societies are scams.

I can get credit for a washer right in shop, could you do the same? I guess you can do the same in Russia. It's just a first step.

Yes, sir, I could. In Soviet Times I bought many things that way - true, the credit wasn't offered by the shop, but by my employers and the State Bank.

The most important thing is you can choose how could you get the money and what do you want to buy. It's not a life where an uncle decides where you will work and where you will live.

And that's how it was back then. Whoever says the opposite is a darn lier or an indoctrinated muppet.

Originally Posted by JJ

In my daughter's class in the school there are some children who are realy smart, but their parents are poor. I bet they'll never get a credit for education and they will never get a good medical insurance.

Have they made a try to change something. I guess, no.

That's the most pathetic argument I've ever heard from you. You don't even know those people.

Originally Posted by JJ

In 10 years they'll all be alcoholics or narcomaniacs or criminals. It couldn't be possible in the USSR.

It's my turn to do "WHAT?". There were not alcoholics in USSR? Oh really? Even at work?

There are alcoholics in any society, however, alcoholism was never encouraged in the USSR, nowadays people are being forced to become a drunken peasant mob which is so easy to control.

Actually, refresh your memory. How many things are really changed in your life? Just compare what you could do/have/buy in USSR times and now.

Yessir, I could afford more and it was largerly higher quality stuff.

PS. The subject is not about USSR as a socialism/capitalism competition. It's about USSR as a union.

Very good point. Let's stick to it then.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I chose which building society to invest into and soon I was living in a nice apartment paying a very moderate sum and today that fantastic apartment belongs to me.

Yep, it was your chance to get an apartment before forty. I believe it was "moderate sum"; also I believe that you really think it is a "nice fantastic apartment".

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I'm grateful to the Soviet Union for this.

For what? SU didn't give you an apartment, such you already paid btw, because you already have one for your personal money.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Today most building societies are scams.

Vote for people who are able to write the laws properly.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

In Soviet Times I bought many things that way - true, the credit wasn't offered by the shop, but by my employers and the State Bank.

Really!? Tell me more.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And that's how it was back then.

It depends on how back you can get. There was a times when peasants didn't have a passport; you have to know what does it mean. Also you have to know what "прописка" does mean.
JJ says about a period after university and etc. It's so called "распределение". Actually it has a logic - they've taught you, and they wants you to work for them a couple of years (at some place they choose). Could you pay for yourself and reject "распределение"?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

That's the most pathetic argument I've ever heard from you. You don't even know those people.

So what? You didn't deny they are people, and people can do changes.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

There are alcoholics in any society,

To be correct I would say "in most of societies". Who did say to you that alcoholism is for USSR people only?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

, however, alcoholism was never encouraged in the USSR

Formally no, but practically really yes. Take a look at SU times' prices for alcohol, and for many of people that was the only entertainment.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

nowadays people are being forced to become a drunken peasant mob which is so easy to control.

Nowadays is the SU "traditions" plus results of the transition which you are trying to make longer.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Yessir, I could afford more and it was largerly higher quality stuff.

Don't be such a common gabber; Show your calculations.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Very good point. Let's stick to it then.

So. What's your point?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

BTW, do you know that we never had communism in the Soviet Union?

I

[quote=Kamion][quote=VendingMachine]

BTW, do you know that we never had communism in the Soviet Union?

I

Originally Posted by BETEP

Yep, it was your chance to get an apartment before forty. I believe it was "moderate sum"; also I believe that you really think it is a "nice fantastic apartment".

It is a nice apartment. Would you like to see some photos? (But of course you will say I used Photoshop). I have travelled all over and I've seen only a few apartments which were a tad nicer. Just a tad.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I'm grateful to the Soviet Union for this.

For what? SU didn't give you an apartment, such you already paid btw, because you already have one for your personal money.

For creating and maintaining a regime in the country under which it was possible for realiable building societies to flurish and provide loads of citizens with decent apartments.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Today most building societies are scams.

Vote for people who are able to write the laws properly.

It's not about writing laws, it's about enforcing the existing ones.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

In Soviet Times I bought many things that way - true, the credit wasn't offered by the shop, but by my employers and the State Bank.

Really!? Tell me more.
Yes, I can tell you more - my employer paid 70% - 90% for my trips to the Caucasus, when I was younger my parents employers paid for a nice summer camp for me, etc. When my brother got married he went on a boat trip from St Pete to Astrakhan with his wife - their employers had paid 90% of the sum. I bought two washing machines, loads of kitchen appliences, a tape recorder, a big screen (not today's big screen, the then 'big screen' ) TV, a cinema projector (16mm), a canoe, excellent mountain climbing equipment - I could continue this list. All that stuff I was given credit for by my employers. I could go paragliding for nothing. I attended free diving lessons at a swimming pool nearby and received a certificate. I could go on and on and on.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And that's how it was back then.

It depends on how back you can get. There was a times when peasants didn't have a passport; you have to know what does it mean.

You could as far back as Dickensian times and speak of workers being ill-treated by cruel factory owners in the North West of England. All this stuff is irrelevant to the time I'm describing.

Also you have to know what "прописка" does mean.

It's amazing how you put everything into one pile... Propiska is not a bad thing, I rather welcome it. It was never a problem for me nor for anyone I know.

JJ says about a period after university and etc. It's so called "распределение". Actually it has a logic - they've taught you, and they wants you to work for them a couple of years (at some place they choose). Could you pay for yourself and reject "распределение"?
Yes, you could. I rejected raspredelenie - I went elsewhere and paid over a period of a few years - a tiny sum was automatically deducted from my salary by the Bank. Many of my messmates did the same thing.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

That's the most pathetic argument I've ever heard from you. You don't even know those people.

So what? You didn't deny they are people, and people can do changes.

Yes, like certain individuals could change by buying themselves some grey matter. Likely story.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

, however, alcoholism was never encouraged in the USSR

Formally no, but practically really yes. Take a look at SU times' prices for alcohol, and for many of people that was the only entertainment.

But for the vast majority it wasn't. It is now.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

nowadays people are being forced to become a drunken peasant mob which is so easy to control.

Nowadays is the SU "traditions" plus results of the transition which you are trying to make longer.

We're not trying to make it longer - we don't want it, simple as that.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Yessir, I could afford more and it was largerly higher quality stuff.

Don't be such a common gabber; Show your calculations.

What calculations? Go to any shop in Russia. I simply could buy more stuff on my monthly salary back then. And yes it was better quality stuff - we didn't have that Chinese sweatshop sh*te galore back then. Proper Soviet and European workmanship only.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Very good point. Let's stick to it then.

So. What's your point?[/quote]My point is that it's in a way it's a pity that the Union fell apart, on the other hands Russia's free from the yoke of those other Republics which is great. However, there are many people trapped between Russia and the ex-Republics, which isn't great at all.